Anyone have recent experience with NYYS, Juilliard PC, MSM PC, Mannes Prep, etc? I am especially looking for violin, but any feedback is welcome: audition process, level of competition, advantages during college admissions, overall value? Thank you so much!
Both of my kids were students at one of the nyc precollege for many years. Happy to discuss more in PM. Experience was great for both but a huge time commitment for the whole family. It definitely helps with college admission. S24 also is friends with kids who were in NYYS and they enjoyed there experience and it also was helpful for admissions.
We were full pay and I do think it was worth the money and many do get need based aid.
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NYYS is a great program, it was one my son did it and it has in some ways gotten better (they won a grammy award for one of their recordings). It is extremely competitive to get in there, they used to take kids 12-22, I have heard through people close to the program that they donât take many kids that young. With NYYS the kid is getting an incredible orchestra experience (just playing at Carnegie Hall three times a year is kind of neat) and if they have any inkling of wanting to be an orchestra musician, it really can give them a taste of it, they demand a lot out of the people in it, expect them to be prepared.
Juilliard PC is basically the conservatory experience one day a week. It is extremely hard to get in there, especially on violin, there are people who literally move to the US to have kids go there (it is highly competitive across the board). Kids who are interested in music can see what conservatory/music performance is like. Another added benefit is being around really, really talented kids, it can really feed a kids love of music and make them want to work harder, get better, because the standard is high. Note that not everyone in there is a superstar (that is a myth), the range of ability varies from really good to kids who are already soloing with high level orchestras.
MSM PC isnât as competitive as Juilliard PC is, but it is a solid program and you still have to be pretty darn good to get in there. Their structure (I am talking classical music, they have a fantastic pre college jazz program) is similar to Juilliard, the conservatory in a day.
Mannes Prep unless they have changed it drastically in recent years wasnât as structured as the other two, kids had a lot more leeway with classes like music theory, ear training, ensembles. The level of admission there is lower than the other two, they get strong students and they have faculty who in fact teach at the other schools, but on average the level of playing IME is lower there .
Re advantage in college admissions: That is one of those âit depends what you meanâ. If you are talking about getting into a stand alone music school, or even the music school in a university, the value of the program there will be in how it affects the students playing level for the audition. New York Youth Symphony might help that, in that your technical playing ability is needed there, with the prep programs it obviously is in preparing your playing to meet the admission requirements. But for the music school, it will be the audition, they wonât look at Julliard pre college and give that weight in your being admitted (there is a small caveat to that; if you are applying to a program where a teacher there knew you at pre college, that can help with admissions, or if applying to Juilliard from the pre college, you donât have to go through pre screen, and if you study with a teacher in pre c who teaches at the conservatory level, that can help).
With music schools in universities, it is possible as an EC having music background, especially at a high level, will help with the university side, though honestly based on my experience, not sure how much it well help (on the university side, it is mostly grades and test scores for music performance admits).
One place it can help is if the student is aiming for an elite school (like HYP) with tough admissions. If the kid is otherwise academically suitable for that level of school, being an accomplished musician can give you an edge in admissions. Many of them have orchestra programs they are proud of, they offer to pay for kids lessons, can have chamber and so forth. NYYS would be a marker for this kind of admission IME as well. I have seen plenty of kids who went from these programs into elite colleges and universities, whether they studied music or not, many keep playing and some go on to study performance in grad school.
I think all of them are great experiences in their own way, it certainly wonât hurt the student to go into any of these programs. In terms of ROI, if you are talking music school admission I would say getting into Juilliard PC or MSM PC would give you more of an edge, in terms of playing level. The other value of the PC programs and NYYS as I said earlier is it gives them a taste of what being a music student is or what it is like being in a pro orchestra, to see if they want to do it.
One note, doing a program like Juilliard PC and NYYS can be pretty tiring, Juilliard is an all day Saturday program, and NYYS rehearsal is on Sundays and it is pretty intense. My S stopped doing NYYS after his first year at Juilliard PC, he felt it was just too much for him.
One note with MSM and Juilliard PC, if you want to shoot for it, I would highly recommend studying with a teacher who teaches there, it will increase their chances of getting in, because the teacher knows what they are looking for in terms of level of playing, and also because they can influence admissions (like college level music programs, a teacher has to want to teach you, if they know you and especially really like you, they will advocate for you).
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My experience with the NY programs is quite old â my own experiences instead of my kidsâ experiences. As such, I am not so sure how helpful I can be with specifics, but I would like to comment on the general concept of pre-college programs versus orchestra programs.
There is no doubt about orchestra being really fun. While there will always be some gain in skills from any musical opportunity, the amount you gain as an individual player from an orchestra-focused program will always be significantly less than from a pre-college program (for a string player). Now, if your student is not looking to major in music, is trying to get into an Ivy, or is looking at a double major at a college, orchestra is going to be just fine. But if your kidâs goal is a top conservatory, they are better off doing a pre-college program. Generally, the time commitment for both is quite significant, so most people have to choose one or the other.
Pre-college programs are much more comprehensive. Time is spent on orchestra, but also in chamber music, theory, and lessons, among other opportunities. Students in pre-college programs tend to spend more time on individual practice and development, and also gain a lot of important skills from chamber music. They tend to be much better prepared for conservatory. They also tend to have better networking, lesson/masterclass, and performance opportunities.
My kids did the youth symphony here in Chicago up until age 12/13 and then switched to a pre-college program. They enjoyed orchestra for the most part (though there were some issues with age vs. level placement), but absolutely loved the pre-college program. Comparing them to their peers who stayed in orchestra, they advanced much more as individual performers. The level of students in the pre-college program is also generally higher than the orchestra programs as well, meaning they are playing with higher level peers more reguarly.
I hope that helps!
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Heyâsorry for the late reply, but thank you so much for your responses! They were all very helpful 
Re @helpingthekid73 I sent a DM, but Iâm new to the site so Iâm not sure if it went through lol. Thank you for offering to share your experiences!
Iâm not planning on being a music major, but I do genuinely love the violin/classical music and would like to continue somehow. Iâm not sure if this will be through a music minor, university orchestra, or just continuing lessons yet, but either way Iâd love to get more experience.
The reason I asked about advantage in college admissions is that itâs a huge time and financial commitment, and I would want to consider all factors before deciding. And of course the leg up doesnât hurt lol.
Re @old_music_prnt I am leaning towards MSM, and if I do decide, Iâd be interested in doing a trial lesson. Do you know if I just email or if thereâs another way to get in contact? Thank you so much!
Going to pm you now.
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@chordsandaccords It sounds like you like music and want to keep pursuing it but not to major in it (specifically performance) and that is great. With that focus, you still want to find a good teacher , since it is a lot more satisfying IMO to play as well as you can. Most of this is going to come down to what your interests are, what you enjoy. Juilliard pre college for example is an intense musical experience, which you may enjoy, and a lot of kids who go there are not intending to major in music but many keep playing in college in college orchestras and the like; some will later go on to get a masters in music performance if they decide they want to continue. The thing you have to ask yourself is what you want out of it.At Juilliard and MSM, you will be taking classes in music theory and solfege (ear training), as well as orchestra and chamber music (plus of course individual lessons with your teacher). It is all in a single day, so it is a lot in very little time, and it is a commitment. MSM pre college is not quite as competitive as Juilliardâs but it still has a pretty high bar to get in.
You could also study privately with a teacher that teaches at one of the pre college programs, or find an independent NY high level teacher, and if you want to do orchestra, try NYYS. They also have a chamber program as well.
Again it comes down to what you want and need. I can tell you that having music as an EC does help with college admissions at differing levels. The admissions people know the kind of dedication it takes to get into programs like Juilliard pre college and MSM and the level of playing required and it stands out, and something like NYYS wouldnât hurt either because it is a very high level program to get into, it isnât easy. For some colleges it is a sign of dedication and self discipline, for others it might be that and they put an emphasis on their college orchestras and music programs (for example, Ivy league schools like Princeton, Harvard, Columbia and others are very proud of their college orchestras, there are other high level colleges that have a similar attitude). Being in a high level music program will likely help at most colleges in terms of value as an EC, at some of the elite schools it can be a pretty big help IME (note it doesnât mean you donât need to be a top student to get in, this just gives an edge against similarly high performing students who apply).
With getting in touch with teachers for sample lessons or to see if they will be willing to take you on, the teachers often have their own websites and you can contact them via email. If they donât, often the schools websites (for the pre college programs or even the conservatory) will have email addresses on their website. If they donât, you could contact the school and ask if there is some way you can contact the teachers via email, explain why you are asking.
I wish you luck, music is a great thing to have in your life:)
Thank you so much!! I agree, I would like to play as well as I can 
and music has been a really valuable experience for me. I will try to get in contact with some teachers. Thank you again!
My son did NYYS (the orchestra program, not the chamber program). It is more competitive and higher level than other city youth orchestras because it goes up to age 22 and also it is NYC and draws people in from LI, CT, NJ, Westchester, etc. He loved every moment of it and it truly inspired him. The violinist level is competitive but not crazy. I know of a couple violinists there that are good but not the best of their age groups and they are in the back of the 2nd violinist section. And then the front of the 1st violinist section is full of spectacular violinists.
My son is now at Juilliard PC and due to time commitment, dropped NYYS. Juilliard is all day on Saturday so there is no direct conflict (NYYS is Sunday) but he needs time to do homework and other commitments. That said, there are a lot of kids who do MSM PC and NYYS. Juilliard is hard to get into. Violin is not as hard has cello but it is harder than viola (in terms of getting in). I have known some kids who got into Juilliard PC who would not be able to gain admission to Juilliard College, and then there are the kids who are already recording artists who have already soloâd with major symphony orchestras. Violinists, because there are more of them, seem to have a wider range. Back in the day, there were so many more great violinists than cellists or violists, but nowadays there seem to be more violists (although still nowhere near the number of violinists) and way more cellists. As far as high school programs, this is about as competitive as it gets for classical musicians. There are, as someone said above, people who move to NYC from other countries to attend Juilliard PC so the competition involves not only NYers but also people from NJ, CT, PA, MA, I even know of kids commuting from VA, and then also the international community who also shows up to compete. I agree that it tends to help in college admissions at Ivies just like any other elite level extracurricular activity, but for music school is more about your audition and/or previously established relationships (like if you worked with a teacher at a music festival over the summer and he/she really liked you). Studying with a Juilliard teacher can help, but even if you donât, you should reach out to at least one Juilliard PC teacher (this is goes for MSM as well) to have a trial lesson to see if you have good chemistry with them and also to hopefully impress them.
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Very well summed up. Interesting that it is more difficult to get into PC on Cello, when my son was there, it was violin that was way difficult (the year he got in, they had I think 10 slots and like 150 kids applied/auditioned, I believe they werenât using pre screens yet in PC). There always was a range at PC in the strings, from kids who were already doing high level things like soloing, to kids who were solid but not necessarily great (which also means little, because many kids in the time they are in the program grow from that, and a lot of the more âmiddle of the packâ kids end up eclipsing the kids thought of as being the big shots shrug.
One note, in getting into PC it definitely helps to be studying with a teacher there. Not only do they prep you for the audition, know what they are looking for, but there is a kind of trading that goes on there behind the scenes (again, this is based on experiences a while ago), and it favors kids who have studied with teachers there. On the other hand a lot of kids get in there who didnât study with faculty there, so that like anything in music there is little that is written in stone IMO.
My S had the same thing,he stopped NYYS after his first year at PC, it was just too much time and energy to do it on Sunday after a full day at PC, plus then add the rehearsal times for orchestra pieces in NYYS, it was a big time committment (kids do do NYYS who are in PC though, all about the kid). Both are worthwhile programs, there is no doubt.
Other than the level of teaching (which to be honest, at least on violin, ranged as well, some of the faculty are stellar, some of them not so much IMO, and that includes some of the ânameâ teachers) about the only advantage PC has on admissions is getting into Juilliard, PC students donât have to submit for the pre screens, they go right to audition. Obviously with getting into Juilliard conservatory, it helps with the teacher angle if you are studying with a teacher who teaches at both levels of the school or if the PC teacher is known by the faculty as turning out high level students, can make them more willing to teach the kid (all again IME/IMO). Could going to PC itself get you into a music school because it is on your CV? That is a difficult one. I would say not at the top level music schools, the name alone isnât going to impress them. It could be the kids teacher at PC knows teachers at that school, and communicates about the kid, that they think they would be a good fit, but that doesnât change the fact that you need to audition well first.
Not sure if this is a legit comparison. Mannes has a reputation of being third in NYC but this ranking puts it above Manhattan. The presence of Juilliard clouds the perception a bit so the general view is that students at Mannes are lesser talents, but the faculty is excellent.
Mannes vs. Manhattan School of Music: Which Prestigious School Is Right for You?
Mannes School of Music
Mannes School of Music is consistently ranked among the top music schools in the world. In the 2022 QS World University Rankings by Subject, Mannes was ranked 11th in the world for performing arts. The school is also highly respected for its composition and music theory programs.
Manhattan School of Music
Manhattan School of Music is also highly ranked among music schools worldwide. In the 2022 QS World University Rankings by Subject, MSM was ranked 12th in the world for performing arts. The school is particularly renowned for its jazz and musical theater programs.
Not a big fan of rankings like that, they often use weird criteria (it was the same with US News and World Report, their rankings were pretty weird to say the least, because they used much of the same standards they used for academic admits.
Mannes and MSM do exist in the shadows of Juilliard. Both schools have excellent teachers (and some not so great, like any music school) . In terms of level of students I would say that MSM on average probably has a higher level of students than Mannes from what I have seen (and obviously, take this with a pound of salt, it depends on the instrument, and it depends on other factors, like maybe Mannes or MSM was more affordable than Juilliard). Both have excellent Jazz programs.
At the pre college level they are very different programs from what I know. MSM is much like Juilliard pre college,it is structured, basically mimicking the conservatory experience in a day. Mannes used to be and I believe still is more free form, it is more like NEC prep as it has been described to me, kids have a lot more latitude what they do and donât do during the day (and it is possible that has changed, but hadnât as of several years ago).
They are both good programs, though, because there are good teachers at both places and kids can get a lot out of both of them. They are both more a local NYC music school, the pre college at Juilliard is a bit more crazy, in that people literally move to the US to have their kid go there, there was a girl who when my son was there commuted from San Diego, another couple drove their two sons from Michigan each week to go there.
I am not a fan of rankings either, but wanted to counter the previous post a bit.
Where did your son end up going to college? Did he end up pursuing a music career? I am curious to know how many JPC students actually go on to pursue careers in music.
Not who you are asking but parent of an msm precollege student. They go everywhere. Tons go to ivyâs lacs and highly ranked publicâs. Some do go on to careers in music and conservatories but that is probably less common than the others I mentioned above.
Which precollege did your kids attend in Chicago? Or did they go to another city?
I was responding to another poster, but thanks for responding! I do wonder how many kids are just trying to get into a better college vs interested in being a musician. In the end, maybe it doesnât matter because the level of musicianship is so high. I have heard some of the teachers lament that all their students just go to Ivies, as I am sure many of them would love to see their students stick with music. I imagine MSM is the same? They have some spectacular cello teachers, and Iâm sure my son would have been very happy there as well.
Well, there is only really one in Chicago for strings/piano â Music Institute of Chicago Academy. Winds go to Merit School of Music.
Midwest Young Artists Conservatory also runs a pre-college program (with chamber, theory & orchestra or jazz) for kids on the Chicago North Shore.
I canât speak to how string players choose between MIC and MYA, but for winds/percussion/brass in either classical or jazz, the choice between the Merit (downtown) and MYA (far north burbs) is often just about the commute.
Just adding this in as info for those reading in the future about pre-college programs.
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Yes. Very few kids go to conservatories but almost everyone else goes to a top school. The msm graduation was oboeâs, top lacs and a scattering of suny and cuny programs. The other seniors in my sonâs instrument went to rice for music and Princeton. He is at Williams
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