Recieved the SAT Score by Race- Race = 134 SAt points

xNYer · June 23, 2008, 10:51pm

So I am an idiot & a racist now?
Takes one to know one I guess.

So you FINALLY got around to your main contention with UF’s admission process when you said:

“My argument hinges on the fact that colleges are doing now is practicing AA, but doing it under the cloak of “holistic” admissions. It’s a thin vial and it won’t take long before someone legally challenges them on it and wins.”

Last I checked the Supreme Court was in (5-4) favor of the holistic approach that many state universities including UF are using.

Per TOM: “5 justices ignored the constitution”

Last I checked it was THEIR JOB to interpret the constitution of the US. NOT yours TOM

So unless you or one of your pro SAT ONLY friends is planning to take out one the Supremes I doubt the current interpretation will be overridden.

PS Ironically, I have absolutely no agenda here.
I just hate it when people use partial facts I and misstatements to push THEIR agenda.

xNYer · June 23, 2008, 11:04pm

571 views and no one else wants to jump in?
Afraid of being branded ignorant & a racist?

Seems AA is a non issue at UF except for TOM.

tomslawsky · June 24, 2008, 7:59am

NYer,
I can indeed prove you have racist views, but that is OK, they have been pressed in your brain by academia for your entire life. The important thing is that you are smart enough to analyze data when you see it and see things as they really are.

Here, let me start. You justify the gap in admissions by evoking the “holistic” admissions approach. As basic premis of this, the schools argue that under represented minorities need a “bump” because Minority families as a group don’t have the same emphases on studies, their schools are worse, worse facilities, more socio-economic obsitcals to jump etc, etc. All of this is driven by poverty. However, inherent in this argument is that minorities make up the majority of Floridians living in poverty. In fact, in the 2000 census, there were:

2,155,982 floridians between ages 12-17 living under the poverty line and of these,

670,254 (31%) were black

1,077,991 (50%) were white.

My point is that there were 1.6 times as many white students of college application age living as black. This whole notion admitting students who have “overcome” adversity should, in theory, affect white students more than blacks, but the numbers just don’t show that. Also, when people like Momof3 start talking about how minorities overcome such difficult odds, it strikes me that why don’t white or Asian students who overcome the exact odds in prder to to rise to the ranks of the mediocrity of college admissions standards deserve to be pooled with minorities who have done so. Shouldn’t a “poor” Asian get the same “bump” as a poor black, hispanic or native american? I just don’t get it, unless the whole system is a “smoke and mirrors” application of affirmative action, which again is forbidden by law.

<a href=“http://edr.state.fl.us/population/poverty2000.pdf[/url]”>http://edr.state.fl.us/population/poverty2000.pdf</a>

xNYer · June 24, 2008, 11:36am

TOM, TOM
Once again you throw out disinformation if not outright LIES about what the data really says.

From YOUR linked 2002 article you get the following data: (page 4 of 7)
What you quoted at 1,077,991 for the 50% white poverty is ACTUALLY the total Florida population ages 18-64 that lives in poverty.

What you quoted at 670,254 for the 31% black poverty is ACTUALLY the total white Florida population ages 18-64 that lives in poverty.

Did you think no one would bother to check your sources?
I guess this works most of the time when people take for granted all the anti AA garbage you post.
I could have given you the benefit of the doubt when I first saw the data and assumed you were simply tired this AM when you posted this rubbish.
You however started the OP on a low note and I guess that’s where it will remain.

PER YOUR LINK- THE REAL NUMBERS:
Poverty Status for Persons in 1999 by Race & Age
Age 12-17 years:
White: 11.3%
Black: 30.3%
Hispanic: 21.5%
Asian: No Specific info.

I wont stoop to lying and making up my numbers below like you have throughout this whole thread.

One reason I believe the SATs may be lower amongst the races:
Perhaps this could be the reason: (REAL numbers used here folks)
From the US Census Bureau: (They are however of course all racists & idiots)

2006 Median Household income by Race: (page 9 of 40)

Asian- $63,642
White- $52,375
Hispanic- $38,747
Black- $32,372

LINK: <a href=“http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/acs-08.pdf[/url]”>http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/acs-08.pdf</a>

I would believe average Blacks & Hispanics are a little more concerned with paying their rent & putting food on the table than paying thru the nose for SAT tutoring services that cost from $1,129 - $2,250.

LINK: <a href=“http://testprep.princetonreview.com/CourseSearch/Search.aspx?productType=C&itemCode=23&Zip=33543&rid=1&image1.x=10&image1.y=6[/url]”>http://testprep.princetonreview.com/CourseSearch/Search.aspx?productType=C&itemCode=23&Zip=33543&rid=1&image1.x=10&image1.y=6</a>

Now regarding Florida Poverty Rates:
2006 Poverty rates by Race:

Asian- 10.1%
White- 10.3%
Hispanic- 20.6%
Black- 24.2%

LINK: [Historical</a> Poverty Tables](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html]Historical”>http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html)

So basically all the data provided by the US Census Bureau disprove everything you stated above.

The poor Asian student
Seems they have the highest income, lowest poverty rates and highest SATs.
More power to them.

UofF · June 24, 2008, 1:13pm

Personally, I dont think UF cares about how many blacks, whites or any other color they admit. Nor do I think as a whole they care about a holistic approach to admissions or a diversified campus. On paper they may say they do, but in reality large universities are run like businesses with professors and administrators getting bonuses for the amount of research dollars that come in and merchandise companies that foam at the mouth when UF makes a jump up the football polls. With all this AA stuff, UF and other universities are simply siding with the position that will cause them the least amount of damage. If a school doesnt openly participate in AA, or at least say or do something in that direction (i.e. holistic approach) African-American groups will be quick to brandish them racist. If they do participate in AA a decent number of white individuals might complain, maybe even a few politicians, but nothing more than that. A lot of universities arent looking to be leaders in social change anymore, theyre just trying to operate as efficiently as possible given budget issues and legislative pressures while producing research that will create a return on their investment. Of course they will always publish stories about this or that they are doing or such and such grant from the federal government to fight poverty etc. for face value, but save for some individual professors who might feel passionate about their cause, its mostly about the bottom line. And thats not a bad thing. Society gains a lot from this approach, a lot of residual research that eventually benefits us as a whole.

If society strongly believed AA was wrong, eventually law makers would (pretend to) as well, which would cause AA to have a bad social stigma and then universities would stop doing it.

rogracer · June 24, 2008, 1:17pm

I don’t want to get in the middle of this. But I’ll make a comment nonetheless. UF is a state school that has to serve the state population as part of its mission. Part of that is providing a student cross-section that reflects the ethnic mix of state as whole…so in an attempt to do that there is bound to be conflicts with purely academic considerations. This does not make UF’s admission policies racist.

There may very well be private schools that admit based purely on academic measures, but I do not believe state schools can function like that and perform their mission.

FLBoy · June 24, 2008, 3:24pm

You cannot have a student cross-section that reflects the ethnic mix of the state as whole and not discriminate.

xNYer · June 24, 2008, 4:36pm

The ironic thing is that I really have no dog in this AA fight.
I just found Toms original post offensive.
If he had left it at simply stating the SAT differences between the races I would have been OK with that.
Perspective applicants could have determined from these numbers ONE factor in UFs HOLISTIC APPROACH in selecting its freshman class.

But then he crossed the line and basically called Blacks inferior because their SATs were 137 pts lower than Asians. Because of this single factor they did not belong at UF.
The sad part is that we are talking about approximately 512 freshmen students.
In his mind that number should be 0.00 even though there is probably some aberration in the numbers because of the emphasis UF puts on athletics.

He then proceeded in a subsequent post to throw Hispanics under the bus also.

At this point I know more about AA than I EVER wanted to know. I can thank Tom for that.
I learned that:
1- The 14th Amendment does not state that SATs are the sole determining factor in college admissions.
2- The Bakke case got rid of specific minority quotas but allowed a Holistic approach to admissions.
3- The US Supreme Court by a 5-4 decision upheld the holistic approach.
4- UF uses the Holistic approach as well as other state and private universities.
5- There will NEVER be a 100% sure proof way to make college admissions fair in everyones eyes.

So for now we all just have to deal with the system that is in place. You dont like it you are perfectly free to sue ala Jian Li.

I know Tom has mentioned that future justices may reverse the Holistic decision.
I say that with either Obama or McCain becoming the next President, in all likelihood they would NOT be appointing a conservative to the bench. So Tom, the chances of reversal are 0.00%

Oh yeah, one more thing I learned,
6- TOMTOM lies and manipulates data to fit his anti AA viewpoints!

SSobick · June 25, 2008, 8:20am

<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/20/education/20colleges.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/20/education/20colleges.html</a>

Look make no mistake UF is committed to Social Justice.

tomslawsky · June 25, 2008, 12:13pm

NYer,
Yep, I copied the wrong line, you caught me. If I was trying to lie, do you think I would have provided the link? That doesn’t make me a lier and further more, my point still stands. There are more poor white high school students in florida than black. Where is the cry to give them an advantage? You have a great way of diverting issues, which is typical and dare I say clever when the numbers don’t support your side.

1) My point still stands, there are MORE poor white and “other” high school students in FL than black students, if UF was using socioeconomic factors to give admissions boosts, there would be a pecking order based on the number of applicants with whites being first, I would guess blacks second, Hispanics third…so forth. Ostensibly, the poor white students are ignored. why is that? My guess would be a tacit quota system. I could be wrong, but I do feel that it should be audited.

2) Black students are given a HUGE advantage in terms of SAT scores for admissions.

3) Bake clearly states using quotas are wrong

4)The 14th amendment prohibits using racial quotas as unconstitutional

5) Analysis of admissions numbers can be interpreted by a reasonable person to show discrimination and investigation can show there is a hidden quota agenda

6) As far as holistic admissions, ya that is great and all, but it creates a “fuzzy” area when it comes to comparing applicants. The SAT is the ONLY metric that is completely standardized, hense while maybe not the best predictor college success, it IS the best metric to use to compare an application pool.

7)Just because schools may have found a way to sneak around the 14th amendment using Bake, doesn’t mean that eventually it won’t be challenged. people like me can’t do that, it takes political connections, time, effort and most of all money to galvanize a group to put the issue on the map.

8) You still haven’t addressed why when you think of AA, you default to minorities “overcoming” when more white kids have had to overcome odds, yet they don’t get the bump in admissions? Why is that social justice?

Really, any argument you can put forth against the merits is either manipulative or an appeal to emotion.

tomslawsky · June 25, 2008, 12:19pm

By the way, it’s typical of a pro-AA argument to paint an opponent out as one who was “throwing a racial group under the bus” when they disagree. that happens when the anti AA person and argues from the standpoint of fairness. If the merits aren’t on your side, call someone a bigot as a default response it usually tends to shut people up. Never mind that me “throwing Hispanics or blacks under the bus” was merely pointing out standardized, verifiable data.

I have to hand t to you NY’er, you have a gift for drawing an argument away from the numbers and facts.

xNYer · June 25, 2008, 6:02pm

I promised myself that I would NEVER reply to one of your posts again but yet here I am again. Having to post to counter your disinformation.
Im starting to wonder what they are teaching in your UF MBA degree.

You said There are more poor white high school students in Florida than Black
You are 100% CORRECT for the first time.

IF WE LEFT IT AT THAT which is what you want the cursory reader to see.

BUT HERE IS THE TRUTH BEHIND THE NUMBERS!
Per YOUR own link: <a href=“http://edr.state.fl.us/population/poverty2000.pdf[/url]”>http://edr.state.fl.us/population/poverty2000.pdf</a>

Poverty rates 12-17 year olds:
White- 95,011
Black- 76,466
Hispanic- 48,225

Gee Tom you are correct, there are 18,545 more Whites than Blacks living in poverty in Florida.

Now here is the REST OF THE STORY:
Link: [Florida</a> QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau](<a href=“http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12000.html]Florida”>http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12000.html)

Floridas Population!
Gee Tom, I guess you thought no one would bother linking those two together did you?

Total Florida Population- 18,089,888
White- 11,089,101 @ 61.3% of the total population
Black- 2,858,202 @ 15.8 % of the total population
Hispanic- 3,654,157 @ 20.2% of the total population 
Asian- 379,977 @ 2.2% of the total population

Are you seeing it yet???

White- 95,011 OUT OF 11,089,101 !!!
Black- 76,466 OUT OF 2,858,202 !!!
Hispanic- 48,225 OUT OF 3,654,157 !!!

Now I know that I have mixed the 12-17 year olds with the total population numbers but I trust you get the point and know all about percentages. You may refuse to accept it, but I know you see it.

Word of advice DONT turn in reports like that to your future boss when you graduate in December. Youre a*s will be out the door so fast

You said: the poor white student
After Asians,
Whites have the highest median household income of $52,375 with a poverty rate of 10.3%.
Then further down come Hispanics and much further down Blacks!
Of course there are poor white students. But you throw that out as a smokescreen.

And then there was the ULTIMATE IRONY!!!
When you said:
Analysis of admissions numbers can be interpreted by a reasonable person (certainly not you) to show discrimination and investigation can show there is a hidden quota agenda

IF THIS WAS INDEED the case then I would imagine to be socially and politically fair the student body would have been divided along state population lines.

Therefore the student body at UF it would be:
White- 61.3 %
Black- 15.8%
Hispanic- 20.2%
Asian- 2.2%

BUT GUESS WHAT:
These are the real numbers:
LINK: [University</a> of Florida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Florida]University”>University of Florida - Wikipedia)

White- 73.9% - OVER represented by 12.6%
Black- 7.9%- UNDER represented by 7.9%
Hispanic- 11.2% - UNDER represented by 9.0%
Asian- 7%- OVER represented by 4.8%

IN CONCLUSION:
In my humble opinion a reasonable person (again not you) would conclude UF is really not doing much to socially engineer its class and there is no hidden quota.
ONLY A DIFFERENCE IN SAT SCORES.

God help me I think Im actually starting to enjoy disproving all your posts.

FLBoy · June 25, 2008, 7:40pm

When a better able, better prepared applicant’s opportunity is blatantly stolen from him or her and just handed over to another purely because of race, nobody is the better off. There is a fairly wide range of schools here in Florida. How is it logical, much less fair, that each and every school’s administrators must strive to ensure that the demographics of their school match the demographics of the population of Florida at large? Students will be happier and have better success by matching their abilities to their school of best fit.

It’s great that UF has earned it’s reputation as the top-tier school in Florida. Many students have worked very hard over a period of many years to prepare for admission. But imagine the heartbreak these young Asian and Caucasian adults experience when they are told that although they are substantially better prepared the bad news is that the spot they earned has been given to a so-called under-represented minority. Don’t you think we can at least soften the blow by warning them a little earlier on? Perhaps UF officials can start visiting middle or even elementary schools and start explaining this cold fact of life to them.

Let the division of races in this great country formally begin right then and there! How about this: Divide kindergarten into two groups: black and Histpanic in one and Asian and Caucasian in the other. Instruct the second group that they will have to work extra hard to gain admission to college. Then tell the first group that they can just relax as their admission to college is essentially guaranteed.

In the end, which group will be better off?

kolom · June 25, 2008, 8:54pm

FLBoy,

First of all, stop being so melodramatic.

Also, no opportunity is blatantly is being taken away by anybody and there is not any racism. It would be racism if applicants were admitted SOLELY on race. Students are admitted based on different factors and race,but mainly background, are simply some of the factors. It happens that those black and hispanic students come from less affluent backgrounds than their White and Asian counterparts. Those stellar kids are product of parents who pampered those children, or parents that have the financial resources necessary for a great education and took charge of their children’s education. Remember that education is mostly for those on the higher end of income brackets. As you might know, getting out of those disavantaged backgrounds is very hard. I forgot you are the only that can have an opportunity. To your dismay, I’m sure UF accepted White kids from disavantaged backgrounds with lower stats.

UF, like any other institution, has enrollment goals for different purposes if you will and some criteria they have to meet as a public institution by law.

For example, UF has a nationally ranked football team which might translate in rejecting unathletic nerds with 1400s, unless they obviously find football players with 1400s. Something worth mentioning is that the Stats posted on the UF admissions website are those of ADMITTED student, not the ones actually enrolled.

UF, I would assume, has some slightly flexible quotas on the number of people they can accept from each school or district. They simply can not accept all qualified candidates from District X and only 10% of the qualified candidates from District Y.

Another reason why you may probably get rejected, especially at places like harvard, is if they feel like you were too pampered or someone else took charge of your education (i.e. parents). I know people that were in the IB program just because their parents wanted them to be in it. Pampering background.

Everyone admitted at UF can be something different to the campus. In addition, UF can not admit every single overachiever. Even at Harvard, there is a bottom 25% of their graduating class. Furthermore, those who were rejected by UF who had great stats, I’m sure could have been/were accepted to other great universities. THE STELLAR applicants WOULD HAVE ATTENDED ANOTHER SCHOOL. They are not heart broken and got over the rejection. Nobody’s future was ruined.

Going back to one of your posts, I remember that you mentioned that you had a rough time while growing up due to finances in the family. Well, the college you went to had the opportunity of choosing a wealthier applicant whose parents could donate more money to the school. Nobody else deserves an opportunity, except you of course.

xNYer · June 25, 2008, 9:01pm

Tom says I draw:
“the argument away from the numbers & the facts”

Actually the documented (check the links) numbers and facts clearly show that:

White students are OVER represented at UF by 12.6% in terms of the population of Florida.

Blacks are only accepted at rates of 7.9%. (even though they represent 15.8% of the FL population)

Hispanics are only accepted at rates of 11.2%. (even though they represent 20.2% of the FL population)

THEREFORE:
The “average poor white student” has BETTER CHANCE of getting into UF than Blacks and Hispanics based on this over representation.

OVER REPRESENTATION of 12.6 % > ACTUAL 11.2% > ACTUAL 7.9%

I am sure that someone could run the statistical analysis to prove this point.

So TOM, Delete any future references to the “poor white student” being shafted by UF in your future posts. They obviously have a statistical advantage over Blacks, Hispanics and yes Asians.

xNYer · June 25, 2008, 9:28pm

FLBoy says:
“Let the division of races in this great country formally begin right then and there! How about this: Divide kindergarten into two groups: black and Histpanic in one and Asian and Caucasian in the other”

You do realize FLBoy that this ALREADY HAPPENS???

They are socio-economically divided.

Go into the poor inner-city neighborhoods & what do you see??
Blacks & Hispanics.

Go to the poor rural areas & what do you see??
Yup, Blacks & Hispanics.

FLBoy also says:
“How is it logical, much less fair, that each and every schools administrators must strive to ensure that the demographics of their school match the demographics of the population of Florida at large?”

If you bother to read the documented numbers that I have presented you will find that UF DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE to matching the demographics of the state of Florida. (nor should they have to)

Again the numbers REAL are:

White- 73.9% - OVER represented by 12.6%
Black- 7.9%- UNDER represented by 7.9%
Hispanic- 11.2% - UNDER represented by 9.0%
Asian- 7%- OVER represented by 4.8%

IF UF WAS ACCEPTING STUDENTS AT THE SAME RATE AS THE STATE DEMOGRAPHICS YOU WOULD HAVE A RIGHT TO BE PI**ED.
BUT THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT!

I won’t even address your “some URM stole my spot” rant.

We are after all trying to keep this thread to be about ACTUAL facts & data.

FLBoy · June 26, 2008, 8:24am

xNYer, Your statistics reveal just how high the degree of discrimination at UF really is. If admissions truly were colorblind, the representation of each race would be much more skewed than it is, and it would not be too difficult to come up with these numbers. You could then revise the right end of each line of your data to show, for example, “Asian- 7% - discriminated AGAINST by xx.x%”. If I have time, I’ll do it.

Any decisions that discriminate based on race to any degree are unconstitutional. That truly is a black and white concept.

xNYer · June 26, 2008, 12:49pm

FLBoy, awaiting any credible data you can contribute towards this post.
Also please provide all links to the data.
After all, you don’t want to pull a TOMTOM !

tomslawsky · August 13, 2008, 8:31pm

X-NYer,
Boy the lengths people will go through in order to justify affirmative action is amazing. Your posts are meaningless because guess what? It doesn’t matter if 100% of the black population is poor and 100% of the white population isn’t. That is in no way a justification for a 134 point SAT spread. Dissect the numbers any way you feel, insult me in any way you think will sway others, but the final numbers don’t lie. The proof is there and your line of arguing is flawed. If UF is hypothetically easing admissions standards for minorities to the point where a group goes from say 30% underrepresented to 25% underrepresented, that doesn’t mean they are doing nothing. It means that in the eyes of people like you, they are simply not doing enough. You’re so busy attacking me that you are incapable of seeing the elephant in the room- a discriminatory admissions policy proven by a 134 point SAT spread. Either that or attacking me is a smoke and mirrors game.

tomslawsky · August 13, 2008, 9:02pm

Dude, i can’t believe you have convinced yourself of this rubbish:

"Tom says I draw:
“the argument away from the numbers & the facts”

Actually the documented (check the links) numbers and facts clearly show that:

White students are OVER represented at UF by 12.6% in terms of the population of Florida.

Blacks are only accepted at rates of 7.9%. (even though they represent 15.8% of the FL population)"

The ONLY under and over representing that needs to be considered is relative to the APPLICATION POOL, not the state population. You’re diverting. What in the world makes you think that high school students apply to UF in the same racial percentage of the make up of the state. There is no connection and your attempt to imply one is intellectually dishonest. The stuff you’re posting here is CRAZY diversion.

Wait, rather than leave it at that, why don’t i open the floor for you to explain why you would make a direct comparison to UF’s application pool demographics and those of the state. While you’re at it, extend the argument to FIU (near highly Cuban Miami) FAMU (black college).

Recieved the SAT Score by Race- Race = 134 SAt points

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