Recieved the SAT Score by Race- Race = 134 SAt points

<p>I have to say this thread has been an interesting read. But I think you are trying to turn a very grey area in to a very black and white issue (no pun intended there). </p>

<p>Certainly I will not argue the point that yes just looking at race and test scores there is definetly a difference. But a little research on college boards website will also provide so key data relavent to this discussion.</p>

<p>First, the average white student who took the SAT in 2006 scored 1063 on the SAT, so 1319 minus the 1063, the average admitted white student scored 255 point higher than the average white test taker.</p>

<p>The average black student who took the SAT in 2006 scored 862 on the SAT, so 1187 minus the 862, the average admitted black student scored 325 point higher than the average black test taker. </p>

<p>Make what you will of that. But college boards data clearly shows that black students not only score lower on the SAT than white student, but they score the lowest in comparison to every other group of test takers.</p>

<p>Second, Tom to say that it doesn’t matter if 100% of black students are low income, and 100% of white students is also not accurate. Again, college boards data shows that students whose family income is below $50,000 the average test taker does not even reach 500 on either section of the SAT, while students with family incomes greater that $50,000 on average do score above 500. </p>

<p>Here is the link to the 2006 College-Bound Seniors Total Group Profile Report
<a href=“College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools”>College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools;
This is where I got my data from. </p>

<p>Additionally looking at some other data that is relevant to this discussion is right after the income data, that is Highest Level of Parental Education. The reason I bring this up is that having looked that the UF application, there are questions about family income, and parental education. Again looking at college boards data, students with parents who have pursued higher education degrees score better that students with parents that did not.</p>

<p>So perhaps that reason for the differnce between the averages in not based on race, but a collection of other data that impacts black applicants in greater numbers that other applicants in the applicant pool. Family income, family status (single family vs two parent household), parental education level. </p>

<p>To make a statement that the admissions office is easing the standards for black students is probably a bit of a stretch. The statistic here only correlate race and SAT, no other factors that went into the decision process. I believe there is more to this than blacks get a 137 point break on the SAT.</p>

<p>But just another piece of interest pulled from that data, over the three year period:</p>

<pre><code> Applied Admitted Difference
</code></pre>

<p>Asians 1252.67 1323.67 +71.00
Blacks 1090.33 1187.00 +96.67
Hispanics 1175.67 1261.00 +85.33
Whites 1242.00 1318.00 +76.00</p>

<p>So the average admitted black student scored almost 100 points more that the average black applicant, where the white student was only 76 points more and the asian was only 71 points more.</p>

<p>Look forward to hearing what else everyone has to say on the subject. Personally, I look forward to the day when colleges and universities stop using standardized tests in the admissions process. Of course state schools like UF, FSU, UCF etc. really don’t have any say in the matter as it comes from the state. But we can always hope, taking that test back in the day was something I’m glad I don’t have to do again.</p>

<p>Well I think the point is that the University of Michigan doesn’t have to pander to Fringe-Left admissions policies. So why should the University of Florida play ball when UM gets to cherry pick their incoming classes?</p>

<p>Look, we can all agree on one thing. Our interest is in ensuring the continued rise of UF to a top 10 research institution.</p>

<p>HOW we get there seems to vary widely as can be seen in this thread.</p>

<p>IMHO just looking at the SAT will NOT get UF there as we already have BETTER SAT scores than many of the universities ranked directly in front of us.</p>

<p>As a specific example I would like to focus on Penn State who is the #16 ranked state school in front of #17 UF. (and no, I don’t mean in football)</p>

<p>How do we jump past Penn State?</p>

<p>I will come back later with my thoughts on the USNWR rankings.</p>

<p>So here are the 2008 top ten state universities:</p>

<p>State Ranking USNWR Ranking School Name
1 21 UC Berkeley
2 23 Virginia
3 25t UCLA
4 25t Michigan
5 28 UNC
6 33 Wm&Mary
7 35 GT
8 38t UWisconsin
9 38t UC San Diego
10 38t Illinois</p>

<p>The following is who UF must pass, including one of the 3 tied at 38th above;</p>

<p>State Ranking USNWR Ranking School Name
11 42t Washington
12 42t UC Davis
13 44t UT Austin
14 44t UC SBarbara
15 44t UC Irvine
16 48 Penn State</p>

<p>And Finally:
17 49 UF</p>

<p>I am going to assume that we can all AGREE for once that to become a top 10 institution UF needs to pass the following schools.
Peen State, UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara, UT Austin, UC Davis, Washington and either Illinois, UC San Diego or Wisconsin.</p>

<p>Agreed???</p>

<p>^ yes agreed!!!</p>

<p>How about we do this. Can we get a break down of all the ranking criteria that USNews uses and the weights of each from their methodology? We could compare them all to the schools we have to jump and see what UF needs to improve on. Then we could discuss whether or not UF is currently doing anything to address that “problem”.</p>

<p>The following SAT 25-75 Percentile information comes from the attached site:</p>

<p>[College</a> Navigator - Compare Institutions](<a href=“College Navigator - Compare Institutions”>College Navigator - Compare Institutions)</p>

<p>You can compare all the vital data for up to 4 schools at a time.</p>

<p>State Ranking USNWR Ranking School Name SAT 25 -75 % </p>

<p>8 38t UWisconsin 1180-1380
9 38t UC San Diego 1140-1360
10 38t Illinois 1190-1410</p>

<p>11 42t Washington 1080-1320
12 42t UC Davis 1030-1280
13 44t UT Austin 1090-1350
14 44t UC SBarbara 1050-1290
15 44t UC Irvine 1080-1290
16 48 Penn State 1080-1280
17 49 UF 1140-1360</p>

<p>xNYer, good lookup. UF definitely competes with the top-10 public when it comes to SAT scores.</p>

<p>Rankings SORTED by SAT only:</p>

<p>10 38t Illinois 1190-1410
8 38t UWisconsin 1180-1380
9 38t UC San Diego 1140-1360
17 49 UF 1140-1360
13 44t UT Austin 1090-1350
11 42t Washington 1080-1320
15 44t UC Irvine 1080-1290
16 48 Penn State 1080-1280
14 44t UC SBarbara 1050-1290
12 42t UC Davis 1030-1280</p>

<p>WHY is UF not tied with UCSD for 38th ???</p>

<p>Clearly the admitted undergrads at UF are dare I say BETTER (as deemend by the SAT) than UC davis, UC/SB, Penn St, UCI,Wash and UTAustin.</p>

<p>So can we finally agree that it’s NOT the SAT but something else that is holding back UF?</p>

<p>Let’s go find it so that it can be fixed.</p>

<p>PS I’ll have the Penn St comparison later. I have NO idea how they are ranked ahead of UF.</p>

<p>I do not have a current edition of the ’08 USNWR rankings so others will have to come up with the weighted percentages for each criterion.</p>

<p>IMHO these are the only numbers that should matter:</p>

<p>UG student expenses:
PS- $25,208 UF- $14,437 Advantage: UF</p>

<p>UG Enrollment:
PS- 36,815 UF- 35,189 Advantage: Tied</p>

<p>UG by Gender:
Male:
PS- 55% UF- 46% Advantage: Females
Female:
PS- 45% UF- 54% Advantage: Males</p>

<p>UG by Race:
White:
PS- 84% UF- 64% Advantage: ??
Other:
PS- 16% UF- 36% Advantage: ??</p>

<p>SAT Scores:
PS- 1080-1280 UF-1140-1360 Advantage: UF</p>

<p>Retention rates:
PS- 95% UF- 93% Advantage- PS?</p>

<p>Graduation rates 6 yr:
PS- 81% UF- 79% Advantage- PS?</p>

<p>Biggest contrasts between PS & UF:</p>

<p>Predominately white male.
Pay $11,000 yr more than UF students
About the same graduation & retention rates.
Lower SAT scores.</p>

<p>Now who has the other criteria for the points from USNWR?</p>

<p>PS -58% UF- 42% Advantage: UF</p>

<p>I’ll try to stop at the bookstore to find the USNews book and get the numbers.</p>

<p>I have heard that Peer Assesment goes away?
What is the new breakdown.</p>

<p>SCORING CRITERIA Subsections %
Peer Assesment- TOTAL 25% 25%</p>

<p>Graduation & Retention Rates<br>
a. 6 yr graduaton rate @ 80% 16%
b. freshman retention rate @ 20% 4%</p>

<p>Faculty Resources - TOTAL 20%<br>
a.Classes fewer than 20 @ 30% 6%
b. Classes more than 50 @ 10% 2%
c. Faculty Salary @ 35% 7%
d. Profs with highest degree @ 15% 3%
e. Student Faculty ratio @ 5% 1%
E. Percent of full time faculty @ 5% 1%</p>

<p>Student Selectivity -TOTAL 15%<br>
a. SAT / ACT @ 50% 8%
b.Top 10% students @ 40% 6%
c. Acceptance rate @ 10% 2%</p>

<p>Financial Resources- TOTAL 10%<br>
a. Per student spending 10%</p>

<p>Grad Rate Performance- TOTAL 5%
a. Actual vs Predicted 5%</p>

<p>Alumni Giving Rate- TOTAL 5%<br>
a. % of alumni who contributed 5%</p>

<p>Grand Total Points 100%</p>

<p>Just to recap all this argument over the SAT scores between the races is over a grand total of 8% of the total score.
Yet the SAT numbers listed previously indicate that the scores are competitive with institutions ahead of UF.</p>

<p>So the real question out there is where is UF LOOSING POINTS?</p>

<p>I’ll try and plug in the Penn State numbers vs. UF to see if anything becomes obvious. Of course these will be last years #'s</p>

<p>UF is probably losing in:</p>

<p>Faculty resources (20 percent) Research shows that the more satisfied students are about their contact with professors, the more they will learn and the more likely it is they will graduate. We use six factors from the 2006-07 academic year to assess a school’s commitment to instruction. Class size has two components: the proportion of classes with fewer than 20 students (30 percent of the faculty resources score) and the proportion with 50 or more students (10 percent of the score). In our model, a school benefits more for having a large proportion of classes with fewer than 20 students and a small proportion of large classes. Faculty salary (35 percent) is the average faculty pay, plus benefits, during the 2005-06 and 2006-07 academic years, adjusted for regional differences in the cost of living (using indexes from the consulting firm Runzheimer International). We also weigh the proportion of professors with the highest degree in their fields (15 percent), the student-faculty ratio (5 percent), and the proportion of faculty who are full time (5 percent).</p>

<p>Financial resources (10 percent) Generous per-student spending indicates that a college can offer a wide variety of programs and services. U.S. News measures financial resources by using the average spending per student on instruction, research, student services, and related educational expenditures in the 2005 and 2006 fiscal years. Spending on sports, dorms, and hospitals doesn’t count, only the part of a school’s budget that goes toward educating students.</p>

<p>Graduation rate performance (5 percent; only in national universities and liberal arts colleges) This indicator of “added value” shows the effect of the college’s programs and policies on the graduation rate of students after controlling for spending and student characteristics. We measure the difference between a school’s six-year graduation rate for the class that entered in 2000 and the rate we predicted for the class. If the actual graduation rate is higher than the predicted rate, the college is enhancing achievement.</p>

<p>Thanks fo the info goufgators.
Perhaps you could update the UF vs PSU numbers.</p>

<p>The following are the 2007 numbers:</p>

<p>SCORING CRITERIA Subsections PSU UF
Peer Assesment- TOTAL 25% 25% 3.8 3.6</p>

<p>Graduation & Retention Rates<br>
a. 6 yr graduaton rate @ 80% 16% 84% 78%
b. freshman retention rate @ 20% 4% 92% 94%</p>

<p>Faculty Resources - TOTAL 20%<br>
a.Classes fewer than 20 @ 30% 6% 31% 39%
b. Classes of more than 50 @ 10% 2% 18% 20%
c. Faculty Salary @ 35% 7% unknown unknown
d. Profs with highest degree @ 15% 3% unknown unknown
e. Student Faculty ratio @ 5% 1% 19/1 21/1
E. Percent of full time faculty @ 5% 1% 96% 99%</p>

<p>Sudent Selectivity -TOTAL 15%<br>
a. SAT / ACT @ 50% 8% 1100-1300 1110-1360
b.Top 10% students @ 40% 6% 40% 85%
c. Acceptance rate @ 10% 2% 62% 57%</p>

<p>Financial Resources- TOTAL 10%<br>
a. Per student spending 10% unknown unknown</p>

<p>Grad Rate Performance- TOTAL 5%<br>
a. Actual vs Predicted 5% plus 15 plus 1</p>

<p>Alumni Giving Rate- TOTAL 5%<br>
a. % of alumni who contributed 5% 21% 18%</p>

<p>Grand Total Points 100%</p>

<p>Biggest difference between schools:
1- Peer Assesment of 3.8-3.6 =.2 % value of 25% out of 100%
2- Graduation rates of 84% - 78%= 6% of value of 16% out of 100%
3- Retention rates = pretty much even for 4% out of 100%
4- Faculty resources= pretty much even for 20% out of 100%.
Need info on faculty salary & profs with highest degree.
5-Student selectivity= UF clearly ahead but only worth 15% out of 100%
6- Financial resources- Need info on spending per student.
7- Grad rate performance- plus 15 vs. plus 1?? worth 5% out of 100%
8- Alumni contribution- 21%-18% worth 5% out of 100%</p>

<p>TO RECAP:
UF was behind Penn State in 2007 because of:
PEER ASSESMENT @25%, GRADUATION RATES @16%,GRADUATION RATE PERFORMANCE @5% AND ALUMNI CONTRIBUTON @5%.</p>

<p>So how doesUF pass Penn State in 2008???</p>

<p>Ran into this info while trying to find per student spending data.</p>

<p>[Table</a> 2: Higher Education Spending [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]](<a href=“http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=8654]Table”>Table 2: Higher Education Spending – Michigan Higher Education: Facts and Fiction – Mackinac Center)</p>

<p>Institution
Expenditures per FTE 2000
Expenditures per FTE 2004</p>

<p>University of Michigan-Ann Arbor</p>

<p>$85,028</p>

<p>$99,478</p>

<p>Michigan State University</p>

<p>29,222</p>

<p>31,790</p>

<p>Wayne State University</p>

<p>29,599</p>

<p>30,115</p>

<p>Michigan Technological University</p>

<p>25,460</p>

<p>25,771</p>

<p>Western Michigan University</p>

<p>15,534</p>

<p>17,897</p>

<p>Lake Superior State University
15,628</p>

<p>17,118</p>

<p>Ferris State University</p>

<p>18,725</p>

<p>16,891</p>

<p>University of Michigan-Dearborn
13,444</p>

<p>15,872</p>

<p>University of Michigan-Flint
13,423</p>

<p>15,772</p>

<p>Northern Michigan University</p>

<p>15,120
15,100</p>

<p>Eastern Michigan University</p>

<p>13,030</p>

<p>15,065</p>

<p>Central Michigan University</p>

<p>11,911</p>

<p>12,986</p>

<p>Oakland University</p>

<p>12,546</p>

<p>12,663</p>

<p>Grand Valley State University</p>

<p>12,589</p>

<p>12,362</p>

<p>Saginaw Valley State University
10,611</p>

<p>11,596</p>

<p>Michigan Average</p>

<p>$21,458</p>

<p>$23,365</p>

<p>NOTE TO ALL OTHER STATE SCHOOLS- You are doomed</p>

<p>I moved this to the UF # 1 party school thread.
Supprised that there has been no response from SSobick or Tomsalwsky on the data.</p>

<p>“How about this…assigning each applicant a number and hiding name, gender and race until AFTER the decision for admissions is made. Not only would that be fair, but it would force a conformation to the 14th amendment of the US Constitution.”</p>

<p>That’s how we write our school leaving exams in South Africa. No one can (or should be able to) claim that the marker was racist.</p>