<p>My first husband had a good ethnic story. His last name is Swedish sounding, with unusual spelling. Family lore on the Swedish ancestry mixed with native American Indian ancestors that accounted for some dark coloring was extensive. Then on his grandmother’s deathbed, she revealed that the family was actually Japanese (on the grandfather’s side). The grandfather had changed his name and entire family history upon immigrating to the U.S. to avoid discrimination.</p>
<p>“I’ve been reading that in South Dakota, they’ve replaced Columbus Day with Native American Day”</p>
<p>That is a growing trend, although in many areas the Native American Day observance comes in September, November, or other months. It makes perfect sense to me for the commemoration to coincide with Columbus Day. Just take a look at a map showing remaining reservation lands in the US and Canada (and native holdings in the rest of the western hemisphere). That is what is left of the “Indian America” that was encountered by Columbus and the explorers and colonizers who came after him. Native American Day proclaims “we are still here” despite all the history that can be traced to Columbus, and I think that is important.</p>
<p>Why is being Jewish and ethnicity?? It’s a religion not a race.</p>
<p>that has Always bugged me.</p>
<p>I"m not Jewish, Sue, but I think someone on this forum who is could explain it. Its not just a religion that you can just adopt. In the more conservative parts of Judaism, if your mother isn’t Jewish, you’re not considered Jewish, either so there is a large blood heritage component to it.</p>
<p>Many Jews are not religious at all but feel culturally Jewish in terms of food preferences, certain family values, interest in Jewish history lit, music, social celebrations or whatever. They may also have social circles that primarily consist of other secular Jews. They might also feel affiliated with Israel from a social-political rather than a religious perspective. Remember that Nazi persecution was not concerned with what these people believed or rituals they practiced --it was an ethnic persecution = genocide. The Jewish religon vs. ethnicity question is not so clear cut.</p>
<p>Sue in Philly–
</p>
<p>Interesting point; It IS a reilgion. My long answer below explains how the practices of the religion pushed it into the category of “ethnicity” in America. I’m no academician but that’s how I’d express the relationship.
It’s definitely NOT a “race” (also in long answer, below).</p>
<p>Pyewacket: very accurate posting from all that I know; I’m glad it’s part of the ethnic discussion, since that is a sociological reality in the USA. Plus, it’s fun to be ethnic today. Lots of my kids’ friends enjoy the good times-- Irish music, soul food, painting Ukranian easter eggs, great food, “Year of the Snake”, embroidered rainbow-colored yarlmukes-- bring it on, they say; more the better. Things I hide, they wear with pride (star of David necklace…). </p>
<p>dke
</p>
<p>Your posting made me sad to read, because it suggests you’ve been talking with some very close-minded folks! If anyone becomes Jewish, it’s the responsibility of the Jewish community to embrace, not reject them.</p>
<p>Everyone Jewish KNOWS that conversion is possible and in some movements it’s actively welcomed and pursued. One movement (Reform) even has gender-equity (“Patrilineal Descent”) policy, saying that either the Dad or Mom could be the only Jewish parent, as long as the kid is educated/raised as a Jew, that kid is held as Jewish within the Reform movement and the Mom need never convert. It looks towards the future and helps some Moms who can’t
themselves convert but are supportive of raising Jewish children with their spouse. </p>
<p>The designation (in more conservative circles, as you noted) that the Mother determines identity was a compassionate adaptation by rabbis to address rape of European Jewish women during the Crusades. If “only” the mother was Jewish but the father unknown, then the baby could still be raised within the community. Am curious: what was your experience with such a conversation in today’s world? </p>
<p>You absolutely CAN adopt this (or any other) religion in this free country; and if everybody were practicing it by the book, there would be NO FURTHER
MENTION of one’s conversion status once it’s been completed. Q. What should Jews call a convert? A. A Jew. Talmud: “Never remind who has become a Jew that they once had pork between their teeth.” </p>
<p>It’s a religion, and the only one who thought it “a race” were the Nazis who built upon a foundation of European antiSemitism to call it “a race.” Fact is, there are Jews on the globe from EVERY race: black Jews from Ethiopia now moved to Israel; Asian Jews who were adopted by Caucasian parents and raised as Jews; Jews of India and China (Kaifeng); Americans from African background who simply decide to convert to Judaism…it’s all there. This is possible BECAUSE it s a religion, not a race, so that when Jews are dispersed by economics or war and live in another land, they intermarry. Some leave and assimilate outward, others convert in the spouse. If the spouse converts in, those children (along with the spouse) are certainly “100% Jewish” into the future. Globally, the vast majority of Jews are Caucasian (white), although there’s a side-argument as to what kind of Caucasian we are. </p>
<p>It’s a religion, available to join by conversion as many do in America especially now. That door swings both way, so it’s also possible to leave the religion by formal conversion to a different religion. If someone becomes disinterested, disaffected, indifferent but doesn’t formally convert out, the Jewish community always continues to say the person IS Jewish until they die…even if they’ve not been to a synagogue in decades, don’t believe in God, can’t read Hebrew. In a family, you don’t kick someone out until they say “I quit.” This can be irritating to those who’d just as well leave it behind, and as Pyewacket pointed out, antiSemites including Hitler’s gang had no problem
rounding up and executing people if only one grandparent was Jewish. Some were amazed to be included at that moment. So we really don’t want to be
viewed as “a race”; it doesn’t play well for us when hatred enters the scene. </p>
<p>The religion has so many unique approaches to practical life, enough so that when a large number of people practice it, Jewish presence is evident to others in a community, so it “reads” as an ethnicity. Special customs regarding food, clothing/hair, circumcision (well not immediately evident, but y’know there’s the army…), day of rest (Saturday, not Sunday) and more all derive from the RELIGION. But they make the community noticeable, hence ethnic. </p>
<p>In terms of neighborhoods, the requirement of traditional synagogues for people to walk, not ride, on Sabbath makes it essential for Jews to live near each other to gather families for weekly worship. Sadly, antiSemitism also limited neighborhood opportunities; I’m not making this up, as I grew up in Baltimore where my family was denied entry into the WASP-y neighborhood of Roland Park (near Johns Hopkins U) because the housing deeds actually said not to sell to Jews or Blacks. In large American cities, it’s more often the case that Jewish families moved wherever housing was a good value, and their synagagues and community buildings (charitable organizations, Jewish Community Centers) rebuilt to follow the peoples’ location, sometimes selling the downtown building to a church, other times renovating and keeping it for use in Jewish organizational life. In smaller cities and rural areas, where Jews also live, there often aren’t enough to constitute a neighborhood but the synagogue still serves as a focal point for activity. All Reform Jews drive on Saturdays; some Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews do; but Orthodox Jews do not. For this reason, it’s now possible to live beyond walking distance to synagogues and still practice the religion, a meaningful development for suburban, small town and rural Jews.</p>
<p>Sorry so long; I’m passionate.</p>
<p>Many ethnic or secular Jews are in America today, and that’s great. They’re part of the Jewish community, too; part of the conversation. They are often active in organizations of MAJOR importance to the survival of Jewish community into the future (Israel support) or express social justice beliefs vital to the religion (demonstrating for relief of suffering in Darfur, and more).</p>
<p>In large metropolitan areas, the statistic I recall from the l990’s is just 50% of self-identified Jews actually belong to a synagogue. In smaller towns, the affiliation % is actually higher, because they need the synagogue to “find” fellow Jews (interesting for Pyewacket’s theory). Some unaffiliated with a synagogue still rely upon the presence of a synagogue (and other peoples’ dues!) for lifecycle events, calling upon clergy for a b’ris, wedding or funeral. So in that way they are involved with the religion at key moments of their lives. Some join and unjoin synagogues throughout their lifetime, too. </p>
<p>I think this other 50% that doesn’t belong to a synagogue accounts for a large part of the ethnicity, along with those who actively practice the religion on a daily and weekly basis. After all, everybody has to eat.</p>
<p>Long posting, OMG, I’m preparing a class for tonight and got carried away!
Thanks for reading, if anyone’s still here. :)</p>
<p>Paying3tuitions, I read to the end and was completely engaged. Thank you so very much for taking the time.</p>
<p>Paying3tuitions, I love reading your posts on Juadaism and the Jewish faith…Keep them coming! There is so much to learn, and it’s all fascinating. My interest began when I read the “One-of-a-Kind Family” series when I was little (about a Jewish family living in NY at the turn of the century).</p>
<p>paying3tuitions. Thank you for the thorough answer. You described the reasons better than I ever could hope for.</p>
<p>I’m jewish from eastern European descent (3 of 4 grandparents came to USA before WWI.</p>
<p>curious,</p>
<p>I also loved the “All-of-a -Kind Family” books in my childhood and shared them with my daughter. If you’re ever in New York City, do visit the Tenement House Museum to see the reality they were based on.</p>
<p>yes, interesting post, Paying3. In answer to your question, please understand that I in no way am making judgements or knowledgeable statements about Judaism. I qualified my post up front saying that I’m not Jewish. I did grow up in a neighborhood that was mostly Reform, and now is Orthodox with a synagogue around the corner from the house that I grew up in.I was only quoting what I’ve read of the Orthodox practices, and what my friends who are Conservative have told me. In fact, more than one Christian friend with Conservative husbands have said that there was great difficulty with their in-laws during their courtship, specifically because of a question of whether the kids would be “Jewish” or not. This is coming from them, not me.</p>
<p>OP:</p>
<p>There is a town in NW WA which is very Dutch, windmills grace the streets, very blonde, many of the grandparent generation speak Dutch or Freesian, etc. The motto there would be, “if you ain’t Dutch, you ain’t much” It is the only place in living a lifetime on the West Coast where I have seen “whites” paying any attention to their ethnic background, all my life, white = white and growing up in SoCal, any Hispanic person would probably be considered Mexican- before we all got PC and before the greater influx of immigration from Central America the past 30 years.</p>
<p>This lends itself to the theory some one mentioned earlier of the various neighborhoods of ethnic groups in cities. Perhaps when every one looks somewhat alike, the background ethnic questions fade.</p>
<p>I will say, though, I have three kids with vastly different colouring and people definitely ask what they are and if they all have the same Dad, just because it is the fascinating side of genetics. Kind of a “how’d that happen?” questions.</p>
<p>Around here most people are “from” Tennessee or a nearby state. My kids are very proud of their ethnic heritage and enjoy surprising people with the fact that nearly all of their great-great grand parents were born in or lived in other countries: Poland, Germany, Russia, England, Wales, Ireland, Switzerland, and perhaps Romania.</p>
<p>dke
</p>
<p>Yes, I picked up on that, and said it made me sad because you might be talking with some “close-minded” folks (my term). From your post it was clear that others, not you, had the closed-minded comments. </p>
<p>Glad you set the record straight, and I’m just re-emphasizing that with this post.</p>
<p>EDIT: The close-mindedness I lament is only from the Jewish families who didn’t reach out and be creative about what to do in mixed marriages to encourage transmission of Jewish values to their granddchildren. So I also wasn’t suggesting that your Christian friends were close-minded! Honestly, any Conservative MIL who is worried about a nonJewish DIL should be creative and encourage the couple to go to a Reform temple where they will be very much accepted. Or invite the DIL to study. Or, or or…</p>
<p>Calling yourself Irish American, or Italian American, or Polish American etc is a way for “white” Americans to keep a tie to traditions that are deeper than “Leave it to Beaver” the “Simpsons” or McDonalds. Minorities sometimes don’t have a choice about being hyphonated, but being both American and something else can add a lot of depth to your understanding of the world as well as our “gorgeous mosaic” of America. I think we can thank African Americans for a lot of the interest in heritage by all kinds of Americans, that was awakened by the black pride movement and Alex Haley’s family history saga “Roots.” Up until then everybody was trying to melt into the melting pot ASAP.</p>
<p>For a really great, and different, read on American History & the importance of remembering both our American Identity and our ties to “the old country,” or ties to the “old ways” in the case of Native Americans, read Ron Takaki’s “A Different Mirror. A multicultural History of America” Brilliant! We still have a lot to learn from our Grandparents’ experience as immigrants, and from “the old country.” I feel very lucky to still be connected to my Grandmother’s family in Italy. We are now in our 96th year of keeping the ties strong and actively visiting back and forth between third cousins at this point. My life is much richer because I have a double sense of identity.</p>
<p>It always intrigues me when non-blacks are actually <em>offended</em> by black people calling themselves, African American. As a black woman, I can tell you that we have been wrestling with issues of racial self-identity ever since slavery. I’m 50 yrs old, and have lived through 4 major black identity epochs: During my earliest years, we mostly preferred the designation of, “Colored”. Many people were not comfortable with the word, “Negro”—one reason being because, from the mouths of southern whites, it often came out as “Nigra”, sounding awfully close to the horribly offensive, “ni**ger”. “So no”, we said, we are “Colored”, NOT “Negroes”. </p>
<p>But then, somewhere around the height of the Civil Rights Movement, more of us embraced the term, “Negro”, when black leaders, such as the Reverends, MLK and Abernathy used the term openly and with pride. Negro is Spanish for, “black”, with its latin origins apparently traceable all the way back through sub-Saharan Africa and even to Ancient Egypt, where the term for “god” was the word, N-G-R, a word devoid of the traditional vowels used in English, and pronounced, “en-ger”…:rolleyes:</p>
<p>Well anyway, during that time, just after school desegregation in my hometown of Williamsburg (yes, the birthplace of our fledgling democracy), I remember one recess on the playground when a kid in my class named, Billy Brinkley, called several of us (then Negro) kids, the “N” word. We had all been taught by our parents to chant what was thought to be a “clever retort”: "I’m not a “ni<strong>er, I’m a NEGRO, when I become a “ni</strong>er” I’ll let you know!” So several of us did a little dance around Billy, chanting this over and over, and feeling rather empowered, I have to say—LOL!</p>
<p>Well, despite the fact that a number of traditional black organizations still use the term, “Negro” in their titles, such as “The United Negro College Fund”, the term, as used for racial self identification was still not one that some blacks ever felt comfortable using. I think it still had much to do with the way southern whites pronounced the word.</p>
<p>Then in the wake of the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., when many became angry and disillusioned with the whole idea of passive resistance and peaceful protest, the militant “Black Power Movement” asserted itself. Men like H. Rap Brown declared that he was “Black” (with a capital “B”), and that we should own that designation with pride, and reject the common Anglo Saxon associations with the word, ie., "spiritual darkness/evil, ignorance, etc., and as the song by Jame Brown went, declare “I’m Black and I’m Proud!” A lot of us had grown quite comfortable with that term when, somewhere around 1980, someone (or several someones) within the black intelligentsia, suggested that we should embrace our African origins when referring to ourselves. It arises, I think, from a desire to see ourselves as a people with legitimate cultural roots, not originating in the shame of enslavement upon the shores of America. The problem is, Africa is a tremendously large continent, with nations and cultures that encompass a number of races, religions, and traditions. Unlike recent African immigrants to the U.S., who know not only their national origins, but can point to rich tribal, linguistic, religious, and cultural traditions, American blacks know virtually nothing in this regard other ancestral origination somewhere in the general vicinity of south west Africa. </p>
<p>I believe the use of African American as a self-identifier is nothing more than a manifestation of the desire to feel as whole and legitimate as any other people who take knowledge of their ancestral and cultural origins for granted. It is not an attempt to be less than American, but rather, MORE than a people brought over in chains.</p>
<p>Poet, I appreciate you being candid. I would hope that you would feel legitimate by your own merit and not by being associated with Africa. It’s obvious that if you are Black, then there’s a really good chance than your ancestors originated from Africa. Just as a white person probably have ancestry in Europe. Asian from the far east. Hispanic from Central/South America. etc… You are every bit as “Legitimate” as I or anyone else who is legally in this country. Also, there is no shame in ancestry that were slaves at one time. The nature of slavery means it was forced upon a person. You have nothing to be ashamed of in your family’s past. There have been many civilizations that have been enslaved throughout the history of mankind. Blacks, Jews, Indians, Central American indians, many far east nations, etc… Hell, considering how many families immigrated to the United States in the 1900’s, you’re probably more legitimate than many of them. Your family has probably been here a lot longer.</p>
<p>Plus, you’ve actually got a culture to be proud of. 1st, a culture of close to 300 years just here in the United States alone. That is more than many of the 20th century white immigrants can claim. Many came over during or in between world wars and have very little ties back to the old country. Entire families left with an entire culture and history destroyed. I am lucky to go back to my great grandparents who were born in the late 1800’s. Finding any information in Europe is very difficult. Those who came hundreds of years ago may have closer ties, but a large portion of the immigrants came in the 1900’s and have very little left of their roots. You have a culture that you can go back and account for. Plus, you’ve got a lot of interest among other Blacks in America who have started research for their ancestry in Africa. Most Blacks have a very rich past that they can be very proud of. Families that fought to stay together. Fought for freedom. Fought to continue to instill pride and hope in their children. And during all of this, being able to maintain a spirit not to quit. Personally, I have always been quite impressed with Blacks and their history.</p>
<p>My only concern is that hyphenating, by it nature, is designed to separate. It takes something that we all have in common; “AMERICA” and finds a way to separate us by our differences. I am sure that for the most part it is not the intention of most Blacks to do such a thing. However, I can’t say that I believe that their isn’t some political motives in both Black and White leaders and politicians to exploit these differences that become obvious for political and financial gain. Then there’s the hypocrisy among some Blacks. Especially the younger generation. The supposed “N” word is such a taboo, yet it is commonly used among Blacks referring to each other. Many times, even in terms of endearment. There is 100 rationalizations that can be spouted as to why it’s OK for Blacks to use the word but no one else. That still doesn’t diminish the affect that it has on the non-blacks who hear. Plus, it’s not something that most blacks like. Yet most of them will overlook it as a “Cultural Expansion” of the generations. Even Mr. Bill Cosby gets quite irate when he hears Blacks referring to each other by that term. I say an interview where he said he couldn’t even truly support Blacks who used that term towards each other and that until they stopped, they deserve others call them it.</p>
<p>Bottom line is that out of respect, I will call anyone whatever it is they want to be called; on a one on one environments. In other words, as 2 people dealing with each other. But, if I have to refer to a “Group” or point out an individual among others where adjectives are required, I can’t in good faith use hyphens to describe a person. I stand by the fact that if you were born in this country or moved here legally, then you are an American and therefore I won’t use the word “American” in describing you. It is a wasted word with no meaning when used so cheaply. I will speak of all of us in the collective whole as “Americans”; when compared to other countries such as the “French”. But when pointing out a person where an adjective is needed, I will use Black, White, Asian, Fat, Bald, Big Butt, or whatever else is appropriate to accurately describe the person I am pointing out. </p>
<p>And even though I have lived in 14 countries, some of which had black slaves also at one time; I have yet ever heard of a Black referring to themselves as a “African-French”, “African-Dutch”, “African-Portuguese”. I guess it’s possible. Anyway, thanks for the info Poet. It is definitely interesting. I would just hope that some day all Blacks can have the feeling of being legitimate and not being ashamed; and being proud of who they are and what they have achieved. Then maybe this will no longer be an issue and we can go back to being “Americans”.</p>
<p>Christcorp, I still don’t think you understand what I’m trying to say about the problem of black cultural identity. When slaves were brought to America, everything about their history—their very names, their languages, their tribal affiliations, their religions, their customs and traditions, their family ties, were forcibly stripped away. It would be like you waking up tomorrow in an entirely unfamiliar place, and being assigned an entirely new identity against your will—one that denies your very humanity, and being told that you must carry on in this state forever. You are given a name not of your own choosing. You may never speak your native tongue again. You may never worship your god/gods as you see fit, or wear your native garb. Your cultural rituals and traditions are now forbidden. You may never see your kin or your homeland again, neither will your future offspring ever have access to any of these things. You must now wear the clothing of your master’s choosing, and speak his language. You will worship his god/gods. You will be told when to wake up and when to lie down. You may go only where you are told you may go. Your children do not belong to you and your very life is not your own. Now imagine that these conditions will prevail upon you, your children, and your children’s children, as far into future generations as you can possibly imagine. Now, how “whole” are you? And what is your identity? </p>
<p>When European immigrants arrived at Ellis Island, it was of their own free will, and with hope for a better life. They brought with them their own names (not withstanding the fact that some of their sir names were changed for expediency), their languages, their family histories, their religions, cultural traditions, ties to their homelands, etc. None of these things did they generally have to discard unless they wanted to. Today, most of their children’s children still have access to their roots, as my children do to their father’s German ones (they have a family tree tracing all the way back to the Bavaria of the 1600s). And they may someday visit the homeland of their German ancestors, and learn their language (which my D has mastered to a fair degree), and perhaps even arrange to meet living distant relatives. On my side, however, there are no known records that extend prior to the Emancipation, and this is common to many black families. Records are either incomplete, or entirely non-existent. Certainly, there is never any record of geographic origin, Tribal affiliation, language, or anything could take them back to “the old country”. There is only bondage, a “culture” cobbled together from the things which were “allowed” (which wasn’t a hell of a lot), and a name taken from a white slaveholder… </p>
<p>It is quite late, I’m quite tire, and somehow, I suspect that you will continue to misunderstand what I am trying to say. Happens all the time…I can live with it.</p>
<p>But let me just say that it is NOT a matter of either being American or being African. The “hyphen” is certainly no more of a division than the one we experienced here for hundreds of years. Quite frankly, I don’t see it as a division at all—anymore than your first name is a division from your last. In truth, though, the “African” claim is pretty feeble, given how little it actually designates, but it’s all we have, so we’ll take it…</p>
<p>I’m going to bed. You probably still don’t get it anyway. It’s OK. :p</p>
<p>Poetsheart, Have you ever considered the growing use of DNA testing to pinpoint your origins? I remember a Star Ledger columnist (Leonard Pitts maybe? — I think he’s syndicated from the Miami Herald, but I may be wrong) doing a search & the story was fascinating. He traveled to his country of origin & the townspeople looked like they could be his siblings! I can only imagine that I’d have a deep emptyness at my very core if I had merely a vague idea of which continent my ancestors came from. </p>
<p>Here’s an article about some black celebrities who had testing done to determine their roots:
<a href=“http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060201/NEWS/602010410/1021[/url]”>http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060201/NEWS/602010410/1021</a></p>
<p>Poet; I do understand what you say about a forced move and losing your culture. That is definitely understandable and definitely tragic. Yes it is true that most who came through Ellis Island in the 1900’s came voluntarily. Initially they maintained their language, although they had to assimilate and learn English. My great grandparents spoke Italian, but by the time it got to my mother and I, that was no longer part of our culture. Even the foods and other similarities of Italy were gradually dissolved. I’ve visited Italy; not family related by military service; and what we call “Italian” food is totally different.</p>
<p>I do understand and appreciate what you have posted. Maybe my main point was misunderstood. While my family and many other immigrants did in fact come to this country voluntarily, I believe that you probably have a more intense and deeply rooted family history than I or many other immigrants do. My great grandparents were born in Italy. Some of my grandparent’s brothers and sisters were born in Italy. My mother, I, and my children were born here. Even though my family came here voluntarily, they completely cut all ties to the “Old Country”. Mainly because of war and separation. Also, because of war and such, there are very few accurate records of family history. My sisters have tried researching, but they can’t really get past 100 years. </p>
<p>I understand that your ancestors didn’t come here voluntarily. My point is that many immigrants from the 1900’s who did come voluntarily also cut off their ancestry ties. My point was that you probably have more family history, culture, and roots than I or many other immigrants do. All we can go back is about 3 generations. But as such, we have made our own history now. </p>
<p>I am not taking away or belittling your ancestor’s plight and being forced to give up their history. I have a lot of respect for how a race of people have taken such adversity and fought through it to build a life. And maybe based on the original question posed by this thread, that may be one of the reasons a lot of people in the high immigration cities like New York, New Jersey, etc… do refer sometimes of themselves as “Irish”, “Italian”, “Polish”, etc… It’s interesting to see hundreds of years of ancestry, and many of these people’s family immigrated in the last hundred years and many no longer have access to any real family history. Therefore, they try to associate themselves with something. Depending on when they immigrated, some have access to their past and some don’t.</p>
<p>Anyway, as I said, I will refer to anyone the way they want. If that’s “Irish-American” or “African-American”, then no problem. But when referring to people in general, I don’t think stating “American” is needed. I don’t consider myself an “Italian-American”. If someone asked where my “Family” came from, I might say Italy, but that’s about as far as it goes.</p>