<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/29Rparenting.html?_r=1&oref=slogin[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/29Rparenting.html?_r=1&oref=slogin</a></p>
<p>I thought this was a very good article. I totally agree with is observations about how much the expectations for today’s applicants have changed compared to the expectations for their parents when they applied to similar schools 25-30 years ago.</p>
<p>What a wonderful article! And I never even considered an elite school, because we didn’t have the money for it. Never gave FA a thought, or that the school would pay for it! Just applied where we could afford for me to go, and that was it. Now…“We meet 100% of demonstrated financial need.” “Need blind admissions.”</p>
<p>I did attend an “elite” school, but, like the author, I was from a non-privileged background and my high school experiences were very similar to his. I often think of how different the expectations for today’s kids are from what I was doing when I was their age.</p>
<p>This is a wonderful article. Thanks for sharing. The author’s statements about his own past and why getting into Harvard was so important for him remind me of many people I’ve known who’ve attended such schools. The most beautiful part, I think, is this:</p>
<p>"I grew up in an unworldly blue-collar environment. Getting perfect grades and attending an elite college was one of the few ways up I could see.</p>
<p>My four have been raised in an upper-middle-class world. They look around and see lots of avenues to success."</p>
<p>It reminds me of this excerpt from The Prophet:</p>
<p>“For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.”</p>
<p>Nice article. I’m also an alum inteviewer, and I agree with the writer. Most of the students whom I interview won’t get into Harvard. All, however, are fabulous young men and women, and have the ability to have successful lives whatever college they wind up at. In my small city, I routinely run into students who were rejected by Harvard, and happy and doing extremely well, including at my state’s public universities, which are not the most competitive universities in the country, but still offer excellent options to talented, hard working students including those Harvard rejects.</p>
<p>What a well written, moving article. </p>
<p>Props to that guy for putting it all in perspective.</p>
<p>Beautiful article! My favorite part was when the twin (headed for a good state school) ran off into the surf. Reminds me of my youngest, who I’m a little too tough on sometimes. I forwarded it to some friends who are experiencing the admission process for the first time. Wonderful perspective. Thanks for posting MotherofTwo!</p>
<p>Really points up the minimal chances working class kids have to enter an Ivy League School these days. Would a kid with a 1550 on the SAT get in if his science project were low budget? Would he get in if his most time consuming EC was washing dishes for four hours after school to help pay for his car insurance vs. helping to redesign his HS’s computer system or raising money for sub-saharan Africa? Would he get in if his weekends were spent helping on the family farm and not helping NASA determine the weightlessness of mice? Even folks who have the scratch and lay out the perfect script for thier child, from grade school on, find themselves out of luck. Somebody here restore my faith and tell me they know an exceedingly bright, well adjusted, working class kid, (not a helmeted athlete), who recently (not 35 years ago) got an Ivy League acceptance letter. It still does happen…right? If not there are some fabulous alternatives.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there seem to be many more oppportunities even within the context of the typical school system than there were 35 years ago. Many more AP classes are available, there are academic extracurriculars such as Future Problem Solving, Model UN, Mathletes, etc. and, at least in our state, there are excellent Governor’s Schools for outstanding students which are totally free for those accepted.</p>
<p>I think a few of those kids are still getting in. But I don’t know them! That said my son (who was accepted at Harvard this spring) wasn’t helping NASA do research or writing novels. In fact he’s a drop-out of our school’s science research program which I thought might be held against him. </p>
<p>I wondered where this person interviewed. I was rather sad that he had seen so few actually make it to Harvard. My son’s interviewer said he always interviews some kids who get in, but he can rarely predict which ones they will be.</p>
<p>?Really points up the minimal chances working class kids have to enter an Ivy League School these days. Would a kid with a 1550 on the SAT get in if his science project were low budget? Would he get in if his most time consuming EC was washing dishes for four hours after school to help pay for his car insurance vs. helping to redesign his HS’s computer system or raising money for sub-saharan Africa?"</p>
<p>That’s not true at all. A working class person with a 1550 m, v on the SAT who was washing dishes after school to help pay for his car insurance would have a far greater chance of getting in than would a well off student who won the state science fair, and would have a far, far greater chance of getting in than would a similar wealthy student or an immigrant with doctorate-holding parents whose parents sent them on a trip to Africa to do so-called community service.</p>
<p>Working because one has to work is considered an extremely strong EC.</p>
<p>Top colleges also have a hard time finding low income students who aren’t Asian or African immigrants or Asian or African immigrants’ kids who have the stats and interest in going to places like Ivies. Even if the person were a white male, he would have better than normal chances of getting an Ivy acceptance.</p>
<p>Colleges also know that, for instance, student with scientist parents have a big head start in things like science fairs. The top colleges are innundated with science fair winners including at the state and national level. Those same colleges are not innundated with applications from high scoring, low income students working menial jobs to help their families or earn money for college. Consequently, the latter type of student would have an advantage.</p>
<p>Nice thread. I’m a Yale alum interviewer and my daughters (10 and 5) are waiting for me to finish this post and play “horsey” with them before they’re off to bed. I happen to interview 5-6 students a year as well as attend 3-4 college nights, with special focus on the large underperforming public school system nearby (of which I’m a graduate).</p>
<p>Like Nortstarmom and the article writer, I really enjoy meeting these extremely interesting people. I’d say of the 50 or 60 I’ve ever interviewed, on the surface 95% of them were qualified to be at Yale. But I’m also resigned to the fact that the crushingly small admit rate is a fact of Ivy admissions.</p>
<p>I know that any given year, no student I’ve intereviewed, statistically will be accepted. Two years ago, 2 out of the five I interviewed were accepted and other reps said: “Whoa!”. Since then, I’ve gone 0 for 12. And so it goes. Frankly, I hope to make an impression on them that Yale is appreciative for their subjecting themselves thru this difficult process for the slim chance of getting the “thick envelope”. I discuss with them their achievements, goals, dreams. We chat politics, arts, culture, sports, whatever.</p>
<p>In the end, I hope they feel that this otherworldly Yale “adult” really took an interest in them and really does wish them well on whatever endeavors they’ll take on. Because that’s the truth.</p>
<p>“Horsey” needs to leave the keyboard now. G’night all.</p>
<p>Hi Northstarmom, I meant getting into Ivy… not just a “top college” I know bright working class kids get into top (non-Ivy) colleges all the time. Also if these working class kids do in fact have a better chance of gaining Ivy admittance via menial jobs I’m thinking next year’s pile of applications at HYP will have 90% of the applicants picking tobacco, pumping gas, and busing dishes, (joking). I’ve read that fewer than 10% of those accepted at Harvard are Pell Grant eligible while 30% or more are the S and D’s of millionaires. Do you think that is true?
You say: “Top colleges also have a hard time finding low income students who aren’t Asian or African immigrants or Asian or African immigrants’ kids who have the stats and interest in going to places like Ivies. Even if the person were a white male, he would have better than normal chances of getting an Ivy acceptance.”<br>
I’m thinking if the Ivies brought thier resources to bear this would no longer be the case. How difficult would it be to seek out native born Americans from working class or underprivileged backgrounds who scored, say 1290 math and verbal the FIRST and ONLY time taking the test. No expensive prep course, no personal tutor, no upper crust white-collar suburban or private school. Are kids like that really so rare?
Let’s face it the SAT scores (math/verbal) of the top athletes at some Ivies are 150 to 200 points below the rest of the applicant pool and they roll the dice on those kids. For an Ivy to say “Gee those kids, bright, low income … well they just don’t seem to apply” seems kind of self serving. If they WANTED those kids I gotta believe they’d find them. Maybe I’m wrong but that kid might be a project from a cultural standpoint… so why bother. I’m thinking that that kid probably has the sheer intelligence to make it academically… but not socially. He might not ever adjust and the schools graduation rate may suffer. That of course is bad from the USNWR standpoint. Am I all wet here???</p>
<p>Still looking for a dishwasher with a fat letter from an Ivy.</p>
<p>"I’m thinking if the Ivies brought thier resources to bear this would no longer be the case. How difficult would it be to seek out native born Americans from working class or underprivileged backgrounds who scored, say 1290 math and verbal the FIRST and ONLY time taking the test. "</p>
<p>Harvard sends tens of thousands of letters to students who score about 1200 (v+m) and higher on the SAT. H and other top schools also send mailing lists to students by scores, zip codes (indicating income level), ethnicity and probably other things that I have no clue about.</p>
<p>The problem with getting the first generation blue collar/low income students who aren’t immigrants kids is that often they really don’t know the difference between Harvard and public flagship or public college near their hometown. They also may not wish to attend places like Ivies. They may fear such schools are out of their league: to difficult, too far from home; too many rich kids attending. It can be hard enough for a first generation, low income student to aspire to college without also aspiring to go to one of the top colleges in the country.</p>
<p>As for your idea to take the first sitting of the SAT, I don’t like that idea because virtually any student can benefit from some practice at it. In addition, many of the more affluent and sophisticated kids from high educational backgrounds first took the SAT when they were in middle school. Such scores don’t show up on their high school records. They also may have taken the PSAT 3 times. </p>
<p>Taking only the first SAT administration that shows up on official College Board records would hurt the low income students while allowing the highly practiced more sophisticated students to seem more impressive than they area.</p>
<p>“Still looking for a dishwasher with a fat letter from an Ivy.”</p>
<p>I’ve been a H alum interviewer over the past 20 years and have only seen one student who had been working a job (in a supermarket, incidentally) because she needed the money. She was a very impressive inner city student who was at the top of her class, but had mediocre scores (less than a 1000 v+m) that reflected the poor quality of school she had attended, not her intelligence. She ended up graduating from a second tier college and is now in a masters program in a first tier college.</p>
<p>She was not ready for an Ivy when she applied from high school. She burst into tears during my interview, which was not a hard ball interview (I liked her so much that I ended up mentoring her for years). She ended up being rejected by Harvard, which was appropriate. Her scores were so low, accurately reflecting some deficits in learning, that she would have had a difficult time getting passing grades at Harvard (I am able to comment about this because she ended up going to a college where I taught). She also lacked the confidence to have thrived in an Ivy atmosphere at that time in her life.</p>
<p>It is very difficult to find the kind of students that you describe. Harvard and the top Ivies are trying hard to attract them, but it’s harder to find and attract such students than you’d anticipate.</p>
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<p>Nightingale–that’s one way to look at it, but look at it from the kid’s point of view. Better to go to a fine school where you will fit in socially than to a school where you will not adjust and perhaps even flunk out b/c of self-esteem or self-doubt issues or sheer unhappiness.</p>
<p>“Still looking for a dishwasher with a fat letter from an Ivy.”</p>
<p>I’ll be attending Penn next year and I’m a dishwasher! 
Unfortunately (not for me, but for your seach) today was my first day and I’m doing it because I no longer have to occupy my time with crazy ECs to get into college. This is a little tangent, but I’m actually glad that I’ll be spending my summer before college doing manual labor. Most of my current peers are pretty intellectual and upper-middle class and most of the people I spend the next 4 years with will be. It’s nice to be part of the “real world”. I think it’s unfortunate that more students at top colleges don’t experience that, if only for a few months.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but I look at this whole issue as being one big attempt at ego-stroking by students and parents. I don’t care how smart and driven you are as a student or how smart you THINK your kid is, college is a whole different ball game and rarely does the BMOC in high school retain that title in college.</p>
<p>All one has to do is read some of the threads in the ‘College Life’ section and see students talking about depressed they are, how much they want to transfer, how stressful it is, how many regrets they have. Trust me it’s easier to go through the emotional and scholastic ringer paying a few thousand than owing around 20-30k in loans just after one year. </p>
<p>As expensive as college is these days, I don’t see why people are so upset over not getting into Ivy League schools. Despite what school you go to, it’s about connections and grades and what you do. A Harvard slack-ass isn’t going to outdo a State U keener…and he never ever will. I think this plays so much into the whole idea that if you work your butt off to get into a good school like Harvard or Yale, you can cruise on easy street for the rest of your college tenure.</p>
<p>From the descriptions of the amazing kids in the article, those students would surely not be out of place at a university like harvard, and I’d say that many amazing applicants are not rejected in favor of someone objectively “better”</p>
<p>But the question here is, do working class applicants have the resources available to get into the top schools? Well, my brother and I did just that. I got in everywhere I applied - MIT, Harvard, Stanford and Cornell. My family and I are immigrants who came here almost 10 years ago. My parents started work at or below minimum wage and have worked their way up to decent respectable jobs. </p>
<p>And to Nightingale, no I haven’t had to wash dishes exactly because of my parents’ hard work. But they taught my brother (who attends an Ivy league school) and I the importance of working hard, the importance of why we were here in the first place. </p>
<p>My brother and I both got into an elite public high school where we had many opportunities, finished near the top of our classes and excelled in science and math. As far as “upper middle class” resources - we didn’t have/need any.</p>
<p>and no I didn’t write my essays about begin a poor immigrant or anything like that…</p>
<p>This was not written by my Harvard interviewer, but it could have been. Our interview last two and a half hours, instead of the 30 we scheduled.</p>
<p>We really hit it off and chatted up a storm. Eventually, he started telling me the kind of information in this article.</p>
<p>In his recommendation, my interviewer, a very involved alum, wrote that he would stop interviewing if I was rejected.</p>
<p>That’s probably why I was waitlisted.</p>