@carolinamom2boys Actually it is not.
@TurnerT You answered on the wrong thread. Please provide data to support your information.
@intparent I said I hear more talk about it. Nowhere did I say “fleeing in droves”.
@TurnerT You may want to answer on the correct thread .
Re: the linked blog, I am sure that for some white people, the beef relates primarily to no longer being the ones who are winning. Others want to have their cake (a relaxed childhood for their offspring) and eat it too (high achievement by their children)–something that was probably never easy to accomplish, but which is now completely impossible in a place like West Windsor, NJ. However, for other families with very bright children who are competitive and hard-working, the issue is more about the extremes it now takes to “win”: intensive training in academics and EC’s beginning in the pre-school years, year-round classes and studying, very little sleep, and high stress levels.
Many on this thread are posing the issue as a simple either/or, and it’s not. It’s not a choice between offering vs. not offering challenging classes. I think almost everyone, even in WWP, would want various levels available to the kids. Rather, it’s about looking for ways to put the brakes on the parents/culture/society which are telling kids they need to start building their little resumes from the moment they are born. Also, it’s about protecting the self-esteem of students who legitimately should make a positive assessment of their abilities yet do not, merely because they cannot compare to the kid who has been intensively trained since age 3. (I am not talking about feel-good, fake self-esteem based on nothing.) For example, DS (Ivy grad) took Caculus BC and Physics BC junior year of high school, earned A’s in both classes and 5’s on the AP exams, yet was convinced he was “not good in math.” Despite having an interest in engineering, he felt he was not quantitatively strong enough to pursue it. Nothing we said could change his mind. Why? A negative self-comparison to peers who completed those classes in middle school.
I don’t think you disagree with me Mathyone as you agree that kids that want to get into tippy top schools have to take the hardest possible curriculum and get the best possible grades. That may or may not include BC calc, depending on the area of interest of the student.
The point of the article, and thus this thread, is that some high school students feel a tremendous amount of pressure to take nothing but the hardest classes and get perfect grades in order to get into the best colleges. Of course, as I mentioned above, many students even in high achieving suburbs like WWP, choose to opt out of the race. But if they do, they are also, in virtually all cases, opting out of remaining competitive for the super elite colleges. Which is perfectly fine! The question is whether there is a way to reduce the pressure, but remain competitive? Is that desirable? Are the Ivys picking the right kids to fill their classes?
To me, the GFG’s kids’ school errs in having an unwritten prerequisite for AP Chem. The school can probably not require a student to take a summer class (especially one they have to pay for), so the teachers shouldn’t be teaching as if all the students had taken that class (unless it is explicitly a pre-req).
I have not heard of kids in cram school here, but there is definitely a lot of tutoring. Some of the teachers probably earn almost as much tutoring as they do in class charging big bucks for 50-minute sessions, which they schedule back-to-back at the public library. Some parents have raised concerns over the amount of work and pressure, mostly parents of very hard-working kids who honestly do get upset over anything less than perfect.
I think in the case of @TheGFG’s school, the proper approach would be to formally recommend that a student taking the AP Chem class in question take the summer class, review a packet of material on their own over the summer and then take a test to see if they have mastered it, or sign into an honors second year chemistry class that would cover less material.
Frazzled kids were required to complete an instructional packet on their own before taking AP Chem, and they were tested on the material the first week of class.
The resentment stems from the fact that some parents don’t feel it’s “perfectly fine!” for their kids to be out of the running for the super elite colleges. They feel a sense of ENTITLEMENT that their their kids should still be getting into the super elite colleges w/o their kids having to compete hard for it.
Not in this situation GMT (and probably not in most). In this case, I think resentment comes from the idea that parents have to pay to have their children take classes outside of school or pay for private tutors in order for their children to be at the top in this particular school. Working hard is not enough (at least according to the article; the actual situation may be different of course).
The issue of dumbing down of HS curriculum or anti-intellectualism in many place is a different discussion.
It’s an interesting example that @TheGFG cited. Our AP chem class has (or had, the one year we have experience with it) a requirement for the students to complete a summer packet assignment on organic chemistry. There was a test the first week of school. My daughter was busy with other things over the summer and kind of blew this off. She didn’t do too well on that test. However, while it was part of the AP curriculum, the rest of the course wasn’t highly dependent on that material and she was able to get A and 5. So I’m not really clear on how a weak organic chemistry preparation would make a student fail the class. If GFG’s school’s AP scores are comparable to those of the other parent who responded to my question, I am wondering why the parents in this community accept that AP teachers are skipping the curriculum they are meant to be teaching and evidently? teaching other material, while inadequately preparing even such hyper-prepared students to get a 5 on the AP exams.
I am against summer assigments for AP classes. The only thing kids should do during the summer is to read books of their own interests. Schools should suggest reading lists but should not force the kids to do things.
Credits earned through AP transfer for free to college. I would rather pay the College Board $90 then spend two to five thousand paying for the credits at the university level.
Again, I tire of the suggestion that this is all about lazy white Americans who don’t want to work hard to compete. It’s an issue of a threat to eliminate our educational culture, which included the belief children should at least in their younger years be free to play a little, to read for fun, to dabble in various activities without the pressure to specialize until they got older, and to get enough sleep most nights. It’s an issue of losing a public school system which used to be good enough in itself to prepare a smart, hard working student for admission to college. What some are failing to see is that smart and hard-working kids who, 10 or 15 years ago, would have qualified for and done well in AP classes now can’t even get in them simply because they may have wanted or needed to work as a lifeguard or camp counselor over the summer instead of taking academic classes.
As an example, I once chaperoned a field trip for my youngest D’s 1st grade class. They had gone to a large mini golf complex with several courses. Do you know that the kids in her class were literally not physically fit enough to continue walking around after 20 min. to a half hour? I asked several of them if they ever play outside. They told me they are allowed to play a half hour some days, and their mom sets the timer because after that they have to do extra homework and workbooks. This is not sour grapes talking. We are a very competitive family and work hard. But it has gotten ridiculous in some NJ towns. Speaking of the right to squeak, I know two African American children who were counseled to drop orchestra, and one white girl who was counseled to stop flute. Their mothers thought they were doing the right thing for the children by having them learn to play an instrument, only to find out that since they hadn’t started learning until 4th grade, they were already behind and were annoying the director.
TheGFG–my husband, who teaches a different science AP, suggests that the College Board might want to know if a school is skipping or replacing parts of the AP curriculum. Not that it helps your D now.
I’m surprised to see so much support for the dumbing down of the curriculum. Students should be encouraged to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible.
For example, AP classes are a great way for a family to save money. A kid with 10 AP classes is likely to have about 36 college credits. Add to that another 18 earned from dual enrollment, and you essentially have two years of free college. Limiting access to these classes, and thus putting an extra financial burden on parents, just isn’t right.
Instead of complaining about kids going to summer school, schools should do a better job of making sure everyone knows about them. At my kids’ school, only a few “in the know” kids have taken summer classes. Summer school should be encouraged!
A lot of people suggest that we return to the days when all kids were educated together. Okay, let’s do so. That means making the classes hard enough that about a third of the students will be forced to drop out in eighth or ninth grade. Let’s just teach every class at the “honors” level and if a student can’t pass just give them an F.
@GMTplus7 – You really think that getting into “elite” schools should be predicated on who takes the highest level courses? And it’s entitlement to think you should be considered for one if you don’t? I don’t think that is how they look at students. However, once you get a situation like TheGFG’s daughter, who couldn’t do well in AP Chem because of the rat race environoment, this colors how a school might see her, as it will look like she can’t handle a basic challenge (AP Chem), because of the way the school has redefined it internally to cater to the super-achievers. This doesn’t make her a lazy entitlement case.
I’m also amazed at people who think that human brains only learn when cramming their entire lives through proscribed STEM classes. I am going to assert that a whole lot of critical thinking gets crammed to the sides by centering on one kind of mastery.
As it stands now, lower middle class fanilies can’t even compete in the rat race if they have the drive and work ethic. Do you think private instrumental lessons starting at age 3 are free or cheap? Accredited summer classes cost $1700 to $2000 each. Heck, in our district you have to pay $90 for each AP class just to enroll. And now mandatory summer sports training for varsity teams begins Aug. 10. With school letting out around June 25, it’s very hard for an athlete to even get a summer job, and tough to actually do one if he has to also do the tons of summer homework for fall classes. And the coach told D she missed out on being captain because her summer jobs kept her from attending most summer practices. She did, however, train hard on her own and beat all the other girls in the cross country time trial in late August by a full minute. It made no difference. So please remember this cram system shuts out many kids of modest means.
Restoring some perspective and sanity to secondary Ed is not “dumbing down,” it is avoiding extremes and returning to a mean. Let’s go back to the original article:
There is a difference between doing one’s best work to prepare for the future and being crushed by it. Almost 70% of any group of teens under a constant cloud of stress is something that no one should defend or prefer.
It is not dumbing down the curriculum to object to a shadow school system. Why should parents have to pay for private music lessons for a little kid? Or for summer or Saturday classes for their kid to be successful in public HS.
It is a dangerous precedent to require kids to take a summer course before an AP class. It is completely unnecessary for bright kids, unless the district (like GFG’s) starts to teach to the kids that have taken summer courses. Our district offers no summer courses and has very minimal summer work for a handful of AP classes - a packet of work that can be done over Labor Day weekend for math or one book to read for AP Bio. Virtually all the kids pass and many get 4s and 5s.
In our district, a kid will not be in advanced orchestra in HS without private music lessons, but only a handful start before 4th grade when every kid gets an instrument. And a kid that wants to make varsity in a team sport or swimming had best be on an outside team or take private lessons.