Reforms to Ease Students’ Stress Divide a New Jersey School District

Parents Forum
1021

Some of you have not updated your perspectives. You speak as though these kids are living in crowded apartments above the dry cleaner’s. That is not the reality in WWP (at all!), and it’s not the reality in those affluent suburbs in CA either. If you want to argue that the Chinese have been in America since the building of the railroad, then you can’t attribute to them new immigrant status with the accompanying language and economic weakness. As for the Indians, the vast majority I’ve met speak the Queen’s English or use perfect American dialect. And as we have seen from cobrat’s stories, surely all the cousins and other extended family relationships typical of Indian culture confer connections on that group. In fact, when my Indian next door neighbor got laid off, his cousin got him in to his company for IT.

PG is right to question the author’s suggestion the white kids will somehow be shocked to encounter Asians on their college campuses and in high positions in companies. That’s ridiculous for those of us who live near cities. My S’s entire prom group was ethnically Chinese or Indian except for him and one other boy–a boy who ended up going to the same college S did. S’ girlfriend of 5 years was Chinese. Our community has elected Asians (and Muslims) to the school board, and they are represented on the board of my housing association. To suggest they are somehow marginal is very out of touch.

1022

Similar to TheGFG, my white kids’ social groups at school were chock full of Asian-Americans. Really, no one thought twice. And half my clients are pharmaceutical companies in NJ/PA. Tons of Asian-Americans in my client base in managerial positions. Completely not notable; as irrelevant to my dealings with them as if they were right or left handed.

Clue - it ain’t Asian-Americans whom a sector of white Americans hasn’t fully accepted into mainstream society. It ain’t Asian-Americans who have to worry about being stopped by the police if they walk home wearing a hoodie or drive into an affluent neighborhood. Spare me the faux victimhood.

1023

In our area, Chinese and Korean American students travel in integrated social circles but Indian and Pakistani kids are “school friends” only. Friends in the classroom but they refuse all social invitations outside of school. Everybody loses out and it took my kids a while to figure out it wasn’t personal but cultural. I can only assume this changes in college.

1024

Oh. Well, this is going places. Too much to say that would pull the thread this way and that, but I, too would like to assume this changes in college.

I took a picture of my daughter and her best friend, her heart, her bud at a visit to a women’s college this past fall. After all the machinations to make sure they could spend no time together off-campus since middle school, these girls have held on to each other, and to their friendship, despite tremendous parental interference, admonition, punishment and pettiness. (All one-sided, and not from my side.)

Whenever I think of this picture I just want to burst into tears, because the girls have decided to brave it out and hold on to whatever it is that binds them to each other, as different as their lives are, as different as their faces and hair and backgrounds are.

Yeah. May there be changes in college.

1025

“After all the machinations to make sure they could spend no time together off-campus since middle school, these girls have held on to each other, and to their friendship, despite tremendous parental interference, admonition, punishment and pettiness. (All one-sided, and not from my side.)”

You’re being a little too coy here. Are you suggesting that your daughter’s friend is of a different ethnic background and her parents pressured her to not be friends with your daughter because she (your daughter) wasn’t of the “right” ethnic background for their liking?

1026

“It should also be pointed out that despite our failings, American society is still more egalitarian and encouraging of social mobility than many other places. The caste system, anyone? Both India and China have historically had very rigid social divisions.”

Is this a variant of “if you don’t like it here, go back to wherever you’re from?”

No, not in the least. If the author had wished to say “If you don’t like it here, go back to where you’re from,” he or she would have said so. Take the statement at face value. We are still more egalitarian and encouraging of social mobility than most other cultures. Which is the truth.

Protip: It isn’t America where you are “doomed” in life if you don’t get into a handful of schools, and it isn’t America where your fate is made or broken when you are 18 yo’s. Hmmm, let’s think for a while about some other places where that might be the case. Anyone? Bueller?

1027

Not trying to be coy. I said what I intended to say, to bright adults. I said it in this thread, in this context, after a particular comment which is just above mine, on purpose.

Just hit a nerve, and not trying to pull the whole thing out of whack here.

1028

Well, I’m not coy. If you meant that Pakistanis and Indians in this country sadly persist in their historical animosity, that also is not caused by American prejudice or white privilege.

1029

“The unfair thing is when the financial 1% and/or white people in power start moving the “what is merit” goal posts as soon as someone else starts making progress. The latest incarnation of this is the excess attention to “stress” and minimization of parenting as a critical method to help kids opt out. What we’re seeing, as I said before, is very powerful parents who will do anything to try to “fix” the loss of their unearned privilege.”

You know, I’m a 1%'er and I know a heck of a lot of 1%-ers and really, none of us are engaged in any systematic controversy to “keep anyone out.” Someone wants to work hard and succeed in life – more power to them, whether they are white, black, brown, yellow or polka-dotted.

First off, it’s so odd that you all are assuming the elite schools are the only ticket in town to the 1%-er club. That’s just so out of touch with reality.

Second, if we white 1%'ers were SO powerful and able to keep “the people we (allegedly) don’t like” out, remind me again why elite schools have Asian-Americans in proportions far exceeding their size in the country and remind me again why holistic admissions is used to help bring in African-Americans and Latinos?

1030

@GFG: Is that a historical animosity toward each other of which you speak, or toward those neither Pakistani nor Indian? Or, because I don’t know your take on it, is that animosity one which is directed at them by other Asian cultures, and so they react by turning inward?

I really have no idea from what viewpoint you are seeing this.

1031

And speaking of that topic, this great country is also a place where as a people, we don’t have a great enemy that we harbor damaging hatred for. My grandfather’s World War II generation was not fond of the French because they switched sides, but no one would have ever told me I shouldn’t be friends with a French exchange student. Our generation’s nemesis was the USSR and Communists in general, yet there are also many Russian immigrants and people from Communist countries (N. Korea, for ex.) around here who are welcomed and accepted. Muslim extremists attacked the NYC area not so long ago, yet parents and teammates alike have been welcoming to the Muslim girls who recently joined D’s track team. We have our problems, but the stated goal of our society is tolerance and fairness.

1032

"Not trying to be coy. I said what I intended to say, to bright adults. I said it in this thread, in this context, after a particular comment which is just above mine, on purpose.

Just hit a nerve, and not trying to pull the whole thing out of whack here."

I don’t know your ethnic background, so I don’t really know what you’re trying to say here.

1033

The assertion of white privilege has been interpreted as a personal offense, which I did not intend. At the core of the linked article is a plain statement that Asian Americans do not have the luxury of dictating the rules or the definitions of merit. I think that privilege does exists for whites, who do not have to be racist to benefit from it.

A negative perception of the Asian American work ethic is a common undercurrent in many of the posts. I view them as evidence of the privilege above. I do not think holding this view (that white privilege exists) is unfair, ungrateful or unpatriotic. Or foreign.

An identical work ethic, as expressed by other groups in academic and other endeavors, does not cause the alarm we see here.

1034

"A negative perception of the Asian American work ethic is a common undercurrent in many of the posts. I view them as evidence of the privilege above. I do not think holding this view (that white privilege exists) is unfair, ungrateful or unpatriotic. Or foreign.

An identical work ethic, as expressed by other groups in academic and other endeavors, does not cause the alarm we see here."

I simply disagree. I think the adage “All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy” is ingrained in US society / cultural norms, regardless of whether Jack is really Jack, Zhang Wei, LaShawn or Jose.

And I disagree that the alarm is “oh my goodness, those Asian-Americans are working so hard, I’ll lose my rightful place in society.” The alarm is “that level of work isn’t good for anybody. It’s not good for Zhang Wei and it’s not good for my kid either.”

1035

The other point that you are missing is that here in America, we believe in multiple kinds of intelligence. Yes, intelligence as measured by what you can bubble in on your SAT’s is one kind, but being visionary, being creative, having empathy for others, knowing how to lead / inspire others, and just plain having common sense are types of intelligence as well that can be just as important - if not more important - than book-smart.

When one is placed in a culture that values multiple types of intelligence, but seems to only worry about cultivating one type, that’s known as not having a lot of common sense.

When it is clear as the nose on one’s face that elite colleges don’t want cookie-cutter applicants and yet one continues to urge one’s kids towards proficiency in the exact same set of things as all the neighbors in hopes that one more award in violin and math will tip the scales, that’s known as not having a lot of common sense.

It’s not racist to suggest that many of the folks who are so concerned with pushing their kids into calculus and physics in middle school “for fear that they’ll be left behind” are book-smart but common-sense stupid.

1036

“At the core of the linked article is a plain statement that Asian Americans do not have the luxury of dictating the rules or the definitions of merit. I think that privilege does exists for whites, who do not have to be racist to benefit from it.”

As a white American, I would say that jock privilege exists in this country, and I’m only half kidding. And being smart is NOT necessarily the “road to the top” in the US. There’s a strong anti-intellectual trend in this country, that begins with the Kardashians and ends with the anti-science views of some of our major political characters. So I really wish we would stop acting as though merely being white and smart gets you to the top of the food chain in the US.

1037

I think I get what @Waiting2exhale is trying to say.

Because my D is very close friends with a Pakistani girl who, for whatever reasons, has not been allowed to socialize much - with any of her school friends, not just my white D - outside of her house or school.

(Otoh, she has a couple of other Paksitani friends - who are more acquaintances - and this is not the situation with them. They drive on their own, go to school dances, etc. )

But I think a big part of the…um… hovering, I guess we could call it - is her family are VERY RECENT immigrants (in fact, this girl was not born in the US but was raised here since she was 4) and they’re still sort of getting settled.

The family has hosted parties for their daughter and her friends, including my daughter, at their house, a couple of times, but other than that, they don’t see each other much outside of school, but they’d like to. My D considers the girl one of her absolute best friend sand they confide in each other, etc.

So, I think maybe @Waiting2exhale 's D’s situation with her friend might be similar?

There has also been a recent and publicized situation with hostility toward Muslim immigrants in the community/suburb that this girl lives in (she doesn’t technically live in our suburb, but in the same school district.) So I’m thinking her family and parents are just nervous in general about this (the females in the family wear a hijab).

Ok, back to the original subject of the thread…
Relevant to that, my D had another meltdown yesterday afternoon, about school - it’s always about school. Never over social life, because, like most of her friends - and yes, many of them are Asian - none of them have time for much of a social life. My D has never been on a date, and honestly, I don’t think that’s uncommon among her peers. In fact, when two of her peers do date, it’s what everyone talks about, because so few of them date. (And yes, I know, as a parent, and having once been a teen, that’s also a blessing in disguise, :slight_smile: ).

My D has decided to drop an AP class she doesn’t need for college - and that’s time-consuming to the point of interfering with other classes - and an EC which she really likes, but with two evening rehearsals per week, most of this past semester, it’s just too time-consuming. So, we’ll see if this helps.

My D actually wrote an essay for AP Lit about how she’s easing herself out of the academic rat race because she just can’t keep up and she knows she’s driving herself nuts trying to.

All so that she can go to a directional university. The good news is, I guess, she’ll be well prepared…

Anyway, all that happened yesterday and I thought of this thread… D’s school is nowhere as crazy as @TheGFG 's district, but the amount of take-home work for AP classes is honestly beyond what I ever had as an undergraduate; and I had a major that required writing at least one 8 to ten page paper per class. I often wrote two per semester. But the workload was nothing compared to the workload and hours these college-prep high school kids put in. I don’t see how they do it.

It has been painful at times watching my kid go through this. The required lack of sleep, the tears…

But I also agree with those who said before in this thread, it is a choice. You choose the rat race schedule to get into elite schools, and even then, maybe you do, more likely you don’t… Or you do just enough and go to much less selective schools. I wish D had taken the latter path to get to her less selective schools. But I’m sure she’s learned some valuable lessons in the process…
And it’s not over yet.

1038

@Pizzagirl I wholeheartedly agree with this:

“There’s a strong anti-intellectual trend in this country, that begins with the Kardashians and ends with the anti-science views of some of our major political characters.”

But even if being white and smart isn’t “enough” - that does not mean the absence of white privilege.

Here’s an example of white privilege that happened to my family just recently, not related to the NJ school system: My teenaged son and I were waiting in line outside for an ATM. A few people ahead of us was a boy just about his age, but Black and wearing a hoodie. We watched person after person coming out of the ATM, veer away from the Black teen and toward my teen. People of color in our society grow up and experience a constant onslaught of micro-aggressions like this, even if they are lucky enough to escape more overt comments or attacks.

“White privilege” means that if my son wanted to, he could ignore the behavior of people swarming around him at an ATM. Day after day, year after year. And even though I like to think of myself as someone very aware of racism and very opposed to it in an activist way, I am still the beneficiary of the racism that has unfortunately been institutionalized and normalized in our culture.

1039

I pretty much concur with everything @Pizzagirl just said.

Yes, our culture historically values education (I agree about the anti-intellectualism but think it’s fairly recent) for it’s own sake, at least among the middle to upper classes - and spreading that privilege to the other classes via the GI bill and financial aid/affirmative action incentives was a way to make it a hard-earned privilege for whoever was willing to work for it. And you did not have to be the BEST to attain it. You just had to put forth effort…
And the students were not all vying for the same types of jobs after graduating;
and decent jobs could still be had with a high school diploma.

But we also value creativity, individualism, and yes, finding a balance between work and play.

And now the college path seems increasingly about fierce competition, and ensuring only a surefire path to financial success/stability, (i.e. hyper-focus on STEM and money, and the humanities and arts are seen as just fluff and filler…)

I blame much of this on the economy in the past decade, but I also do believe there may be a culture clash of values going on, regarding what college is supposed to be and what it’s supposed to facilitate… and about the perceived value of prestige in a society that has traditionally valued itself as egalitarian.

1040

You CAN get out of the “rat race” AND get into elite schools (if that’s your goal).
As Pizzagirl said, elite college emphatically DO NOT want “cookie cutter overachievers”.
In fact, they never have for a variety of reasons.
What they want actually makes the delights of consultants and publishers, and is well-known. Essentially, they want proof that kids learn because they love to and “stand out” compared to their peers.
To a disciplined, academically elite overachiever, I’d say: Read Cal Newport’s How to be a high school superstar and sleep more. :slight_smile:
After 8 AP’s, the law of diminishing returns applies - Stockpiling AP’s and competing in a race is actually counter productive.

On this website, there are occasional parents who ask for ways to help their kids - we don’t know if they’re Asian BTW - but some are laserfocused on only one plan: science class stockpiling, math acceleration, finding ways around foreign language and humanities, and focus on USNWR National University rankings (not even National LACs). I remember a 7th grader’s parent who kept saying her/his son was “a good kid who does everything I ask” as a justification for an academic/EC plan that guaranteed his/her kid would not get enough hours of sleep nor a social life (friends) and who absolutely couldn’t hear that his/her plan was 1° utter madness for the kid and 2° counter productive for college. What about the kid whose parent wanted to “hold him back” so that he could stockpile more AP’s? (Which is exactly as wrong as redshirting for 8th grade football players?) What about the kid who was recruited to play D1 for his sport and whose parents were so ashamed to have an elite athlete for a son they had him give it up and chose his college for him?
I’m thinking PWW or TheGFG’s school districts are like real-life CollegeConfidential, with the ChanceMe threads kids defining the norm.

The Salon article was an opinion piece, not journalism. Let us not treat it as if it were an investigative piece.

I also agree there’s a strong anti-intellectual trend in the US. Being smart may well be equated in “dull” (as in “all work and no play”) or smart-aleck or know-it-all or ridiculous or “acting superior” or weird.
US culture used to value education as the most important “common good” (to have an educated citizen was seen as crucial to democracy, the early 20th century HS reforms posited the same idea and added a dimension of immigrant assimilation, the Land Grant/Morrill act and later the GI Bill considered that we as a country are better off if people can access higher education regardless of means or social class or geographical location…) Education as the great equalizer and the fastest engine of economic growth. I’m not sure this value is so widespread anymore, but I really don’t know. I’m sure there have always been people who think differently about education or who love confusing science and believe, it may be that right now they might be louder than in previous decades.

Note that Asian Americans are not considered ORM everywhere - Carleton (10% Asian) and Davidson (only 6% Asian) would be excellent universities to consider for academically elite Asian American kids. St Olaf, Trinity TX, Whitman, Butler, Drake, Hendrix, are all good picks for academically-oriented Asian American kids. There are LOTS of excellent colleges out there. Applying 400+ miles away to a non-top25 university/LAC gives anyone a boost. So does being a boy applying to a LAC or being a girl applying to a tech school. As soon as one stops fixating on 20 schools, things open up. There are really lots of very, very good schools that just happen not to be near NYC, Boston, DC, San Francisco, or Philadelphia.