That work ethic used to be considered the protestant work ethic of all work and no play, which was frowned upon in some groups. I acknowledge my white privilege,along with the privilege afforded to me by being lucky enough to be smart, to be born in the USA in the mid-20th century and to have had parents who, while poor with no college (one parent did not finish HS), bought a crappy house in a school district filled with high achievers so I was in an intellectual environment where I was expected to go to college. However, I think many (most?) of the Asians living in WWP or similar suburbs have more privilege than poor blacks or Latinos in Newark, as they attend excellent schools and many of their parents are in professional jobs. I just didn’t agree that there is a difference in status afforded to a white nerdy boy than an Asian nerdy boy at most NJ high schools.
We are not talking about a good work ethic here. Most agree that it is the hard working, smart kids that get into the top colleges. We are talking about a work load that goes beyond what most would consider a balanced, but hard-working environment into one that requires a kid to do nothing but work be it school work or resume-building activities at a near perfect level of achievement. That is beyond a good work ethic, whether it is imposed by a tiger mom or any other kind of parent.
Edited to agree with PG in her posts 1033 and 1035.
But Fretful would those same people veer away from an Asian teen in khakis and a button down? Probably not. I think the lack of privilege faced by black boys and men is very different from what may be faced by Asians.
Wouldn’t it be an example of “white privilege” that white students generally need not be concerned about being overrepresented to the level that they need to be concerned that colleges are getting too many applicants with their profiles?
I’m not so sure about that based on the numbers of WWII vets I’ve known who still harbored strong anti-German/Japanese* animus well into the '90s and beyond, my own observations/experiences with anti-Asian racism from many Americans(mostly White incidentally) in the aftermath of the Vietnam War which was still recent history to many Americans in the 1980’s, related animus due to Mainland China’s support of North Vietnam during that war, and the spillover effects from the hysteria in the late '70s and '80s about the Japanese taking over the US economy which among other things led to the murder of Vincent Chin in 1982 despite persistent denials from the murderer’s defenders and fellow travelers.
There were also more recent incidents of anti-Asian-American racism such as one which happened during my latter HS years:
As for your equating your personal observations of parents/teammates in the local area being accepting of Muslims despite Muslim extremist actions since 9/11…that’s not necessarily indicative of the overall climate for Muslims across the US considering the rash of bullying, violent attacks and murders against Muslims and those perceived to be Muslim:
We also have a few prominent 2016 presidential hopefuls who publicly engaging in demagoguery against Muslims in their speeches with the result being poll increases for them individually within those in their party.
Considering all of that, it’s understandable why many Muslims and even those in groups often mistaken as Muslims(i.e. Sikhs) have been expressing much concern and fear…including several HS classmates who have experienced several scares while going about their lives while traveling across the US on business or within the tri-state area.
And no, the educational benefits the HS classmates received at Stuy and at various elite/respectable colleges conferred no protection from experiencing those scares or the fears they may experience more in light of the post-9/11 climate and moreso…reports of rising anti-Muslim attacks from news reports and recent statistics from the FBI.
Knew many WWII vets who refused to allow their children/grandchildren to marry Germans/Japanese or buying product made in those societies. And several Asian-Americans who grew up in the '50s-'70s...including some older relatives and cousins recounted experiencing violent racist bullying from classmates and even adults in the neighborhood and outside of it on account of strong resentments related to WWII/Cold War(related to the Korean and Vietnam Wars).
“Wouldn’t it be an example of “white privilege” that white students generally need not be concerned about being overrepresented to the level that they need to be concerned that colleges are getting too many applicants with their profiles?”
@@ Sure they do. You don’t think I fretted that my suburban white Jewish boy who was active in Democratic causes and taught Hebrew school didn’t pretty much look indistiguishable from all the white suburban Jewish boys on Long Island who looked pretty much the same?
I just think it’s a culture clash with a culture that a) doesn’t understand that the world does not revolve around (say) 20 schools; and b) doesn’t understand that colleges want new, fresh, different, not just merely look-at-everything-I-racked-up. Common sense, really.
@ucbalumnus
“Wouldn’t it be an example of “white privilege” that white students generally need not be concerned about being overrepresented to the level that they need to be concerned that colleges are getting too many applicants with their profiles?”
Yes, I think so - in that as a White person you are viewed as the “usual” or not in a specific race bucket.
Yep. The ‘M’ in ORM and URM still means “Minority” as in ‘Not White’. When some of the high schools had the White population fall below 50%, the school became “Majority Minority” - meaning the Nonwhite students outnumber the White students.
White kids from privileged backgrounds (similar to those of Asian kids from WWP etc) do worry about this. They know the colleges they want are getting too many applicants with their profiles.
Pizzagirl hit the nail on the head with this:
In addition, Chinese/Korean/Indian* communities in well-off areas or in educated circles may well propagate falsehoods about college admissions, some deliberate, some cultural, some just plain mistakes akin to parents who think pushing their kids into sports to the point they get stress fractures will increase their odds of an athletic scholarship… Just ask @Paul2752…
we're not talking Hmong kids in Minneapolis nor Filipino kids in East Texas.
This leads to a pointless rat race since
1° The top 10% colleges in the US are very good. Some are better at certain things and some have a national or regional reputation, but overall you can probably find 200-250 universities that are very good with no trouble, and 10-15 that are a great fit for your particular profile and wishes.
2° Even if you focus on universities for the academic elite, there are easily 40 or 50 universities/LACs. Just by applying “out of the box” you increase your odds, no need to spend 5 hours on hw and cut on sleep.
3° HYPSM do NOT want “2400 SAT/4.0/took every AP under the sun/play the violin”, they want a combination of factors that could very well be “2130/3.8/took 8 Ap’s/built an awesome gadget in my garage” or whatever…; there’s no predetermined model, no single path to take, and if many students from the same school take the same path they all undercut each other, with the student NOT taking the same path at the same school … standing out more obviously.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that the set of parents who are very controlling over their children’s academics is not necessarily the same set of parents who are very controlling over their children’s social lives. In the Indian community my parents are a part of, it is actually somewhat preferred to attend the state flagship, as this allows the parents to live close by, or let the kid commute.
That sounds like a subset of NYC immigrant families of many different races/ethnicities I knew of…including Asian-Americans whose parents force their kids to stay local to keep them close by…even if it meant attending what were back then academically average(all divisions within NYU except Tisch or Stern) or mediocre local public(The CUNYs during the '80s and '90s) or private colleges(St. John’s U except pharmacy, etc).
This wasn’t very common among kids at my public magnet or high schools like it…but there were still a few classmates who had to put up with families with such a restrictive mindset even when finances weren’t an issue due to generous FA/scholarship packages*. Most of those HS classmates ended up chafing and eventually transferred to more rigorous/prestigious privates away from the NYC area for a better academic fit and to gain more independence.
Like in the case of my FA/scholarship package...it would have actually been cheaper for them to have attended the more academically prestigious private college away from home than to attend the local average/mediocre public college...even factoring in room & board, travel, and associated expenses.
Re fretfulmother’s post #1037: I am generally in agreement with you, but I think we need an additional term beyond “microaggression” in the language. I sympathize with anyone who experiences people veering away from him at an ATM, and I certainly understand the cumulative effect of microaggressions.
However, the actions of the people who are veering away are motivated by fear (which is misplaced), and in my opinion, fear-driven avoidance behavior should not be equated with aggression. It’s like the difference between a dog that is a “fear-biter” and one that is a “fear-cowerer,” off hiding in a corner. The first dog has become macro-aggressive, due to fear. The second dog is not acting aggressive–it’s just trying to avoid aggression directed at it.
“Here’s an example of white privilege that happened to my family just recently, not related to the NJ school system: My teenaged son and I were waiting in line outside for an ATM. A few people ahead of us was a boy just about his age, but Black and wearing a hoodie. We watched person after person coming out of the ATM, veer away from the Black teen and toward my teen. People of color in our society grow up and experience a constant onslaught of micro-aggressions like this, even if they are lucky enough to escape more overt comments or attacks.”
I relayed something that happened in our neighborhood where a young black man was going door to door and as he was in my driveway, the cops pulled up - someone else had called them. My kids and I were very upset over this. It was clearly white privilege that my similar-age son wouldn’t have had the cops called on him.
But we aren’t saying “oh, there is no such thing as white privilege.” Of course there is. Duh.
But if there was “white privilege” when it comes to elite schools, remind me again why there is not a single elite school where the % of whites at that school isn’t lower than the % of whites in the population at large? Oh. Yeah.
There cannot BE “white privilege” when we are talking about admission rates that are so low. Guess what - the majority of eminently qualified kids are going to be rejected from their elite school of choice. Get over it and deal with it, instead of this incessant whining that our (collective) kids’ spots were “stolen” - whether it’s by white privilege, too-hard-working Asians, or not-quite-up-to-snuff blacks / Hispanics.
"This leads to a pointless rat race since
1° The top 10% colleges in the US are very good. Some are better at certain things and some have a national or regional reputation, but overall you can probably find 200-250 universities that are very good with no trouble, and 10-15 that are a great fit for your particular profile and wishes.
2° Even if you focus on universities for the academic elite, there are easily 40 or 50 universities/LACs. "
You know, anyone with half a brain who has spent more than a few months in this country can easily figure out that there are lots of ways to be successful (assuming we’re defining success as a middle to upper middle class comfortable lifestyle) that don’t require going to one of a small handful of schools.
If people are too stupid not to get that about the US – then I am really tired of having sympathy for them. I may have sympathy for their kids who are ridden too hard, but I don’t really have sympathy for them.
Because when you move to a new culture, you have to allow for the possibility that things are different in that culture than they are in your home culture. To make the assumption “everybody genuflects at Harvard back home - so they must do so here” or “I never heard of Amherst back home, so it can’t be any good” or “the way to get into an elite school back home is through scores and winning science awards, so it must be the route here” - it tells me that such people are book-smart, and common-sense dumb.
"I think I get what @Waiting2exhale is trying to say.
Because my D is very close friends with a Pakistani girl who, for whatever reasons, has not been allowed to socialize much - with any of her school friends, not just my white D - outside of her house or school.
My D considers the girl one of her absolute best friend sand they confide in each other, etc.
So, I think maybe @Waiting2exhale 's D’s situation with her friend might be similar?"
BeeDAre, the family is not Pakistani, but Chinese, and I think all the kids in the family were born here. I wish there were at least that much parity in the situations, but alas, it gets grittier and more focused in the exclusion than that.
When other parents at school discovered the degree of the extent to which my daughter and her friend were being denied time together they made sure to create more reasons for the friend groups to gather at different homes, for different reasons (mostly birthdays, some cupcake parties, some baking events). They never told the other family that my child would be present, having gleaned that the invitation extended to the friend would then be turned down by the parents.
Now that the girls are turning the corner to college we all see that the tight controls will be loosened if not broken and a bit of free will will come into play.
Kind of interesting to hear others relate their story, btw. It helps.
“But we also value creativity, individualism, and yes, finding a balance between work and play.
And now the college path seems increasingly about fierce competition, and ensuring only a surefire path to financial success/stability, (i.e. hyper-focus on STEM and money, and the humanities and arts are seen as just fluff and filler…)”
Yes, and this focus on viewing college and university as a straight-shot to a career path has been one of the most disappointing discoveries for my husband and I. We have never insisted to our children that they look at how best to maximize the ROI of the college years by choosing a field or industry with a promise of a signing bonus and expanding opportunities to acquire the mini-mansion by the time they are 30.
There really are kids and families who value creating the whole child and seeing where that leads. Being smart and reading the tea leaves, applying for the internship, acquiring the research experience, coupling a major with a concentration that nicely augments the educational background they are working on are all ways to better prepare them to be useful when they do graduate from college, sure.
But we have just wanted them to continue to eat the pages of all the books they find damned tasty. (Oh, look. How anachronistic of me.)
@Waiting2exhale That is terrible. Our situation has never been antagonistic.
My sons but particularly my younger one who is more mathy has several friends at school who he texts at night and plays video games with online. He does group projects with them. I started asking in early middle school for him to invite them over and do things in person and not electronic (a whole other thread!) He would and they never could. I half suspected he might not be asking but he did get his feelings hurt a few times.
In talking to other moms about how we never saw these boys socially several replied that they too had tried and been declined. It was not personal. They just stick to their own culture outside of school and several have large extended families that create a lot of social obligations - weddings and get togethers. One of the boys’ mom did invite my son to their house but he was never allowed over to our house.
As my older son heads off to school next year, several of his Indian friends will be enrolling where he will. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a friendly face to meet for lunch? I hope they do, but only time will tell.
It is likely that some of the following may induce students into this type of heavily pre-professional goal, even in the absence of parents actively promoting it:
High cost of college and knowing that they may graduate with substantial debt.
Apparently weak job prospects when looking for one's first job out of school.
Those from low income families may have grown up seeing their families struggle financially, and do not want to do that. They also are less likely to have a family safety net for an extended post-graduation job search and less likely to have useful connections to help find jobs.
Those from high income families may have grown used to a lifestyle based in high (parental) spending that requires high income, so that graduating from college and getting a job that pays "only" $35,000 per year is unthinkable.
@gettingschooled: Yes, thank you. For so long the express statements of the head of the family to the young girl regarding spending time with my family were unknown to me, and then after one touching event where my daughter reached out and the Dad exploded at his daughter, her own sense of being distraught had her finally say things to her friend, my daughter, that hurt them both deeply. It was in that moment that they probably silently resolved to hang in there, you know…stupid adults and all.
I really had not understood that a great part of the snub could also be part of a cultural tradition until my daughter was in her sophomore year. Coming here and listening to others also reminds me of that, and makes me remember that while the emphasis on no contact was greater when it came to spending time with my family (and probably for reasons of what is transmitted about who Blacks are; what they are like, aspire to, etc.), there were many restrictions placed on the young girl that are not familiar to or in practice by most American families. (Again, the parents were not born here, so that makes sense in this context where I am seeking to respect that others come with their own cultural expectations and practices.)
I do hope that the girls hold tight to each other if that still works for them, even as they discover other things about themselves and their interests, and invite other people into their lives.