"Because it doesn’t sound like they understand what it says.
“We are emphatically not looking for a batch of identical perfect climbers; we are looking for a richly varied team of capable people who will support, surprise and inspire each other.”"
Of course these parents don’t understand. They understand advanced physics and calculus, and make sure the kids get tutored in these “all important” subjects, but they lack common sense and perspective. So meanwhile these kids will feel like failures if they don’t get into MiT et al. What an unimpressive way of thinking. Smarts without common sense is useless.
@EarlVanDorn What ends up falling by the wayside is normal honors courses. There are only a set number of teachers for each school, so if they are offering more and more AP courses, then standard honors level courses disappear. This means that ‘smart’ students have a choice between non-college prep courses and AP. Forcing the top 25% of the class into the AP rat race. If the AP courses were toned down, kids could focus on the appropriate level of honors curriculum that serves to segregate the students that are more advanced (honors level) vs the students that need extra time/help (standard course).
This is a big problem and what ends up starting the AP competition between students.
Of course it costs money. When a district is mandated by the state to provide x number of classes and the teachers’ contract limits the number of courses and students each teacher has to handle, districts whose teachers are maxed out can only offer more courses if they hire more teachers.
We’re already losing teachers almost every year due to budget cuts. It’s so bad that the administration picks a different department each year to limit the damage. On good years they generally replace one or two, but the classes that are dropped never seem to be replaced. Until the electives that are open to all students start coming back, the district is going to have an uphill climb getting more AP courses that will be available to only a select few past the voting public.
"our school district had dozens of kids taking 12 AP classes and advanced math classes starting in 4th grade. Never thought it was particularly stressful, but yes, kids did study and spent time at the library, some took Kuman, some had tutors, some were just smart kids willing to work hard.
The outcome of 150 kids going to Rutgers, likely with some AP classes, seems good to me."
(someday I will learn to quote here-excuse the html if its showing!)
umm, I would just like to point out that Rutgers has reciprocity with the community colleges, so at the end of the day, the kid who killed themselves with 3 hours of sleep and 12 AP classes has the same degree from the same college as the kid who could barely put pants on but managed to take some classes at the CC and transferred later.
point being, the race got both kids to the exact same place in the end.
There’s a balancing act between making AP classes accessible to all those who are interested, and having them become the de facto choice for kids in the top half of the class who may or may not be qualified, especially in all disciplines.
My D, now in college, was an excellent student who took multiple AP classes in HS and thrived. However, a number of students taking those classes may have been more appropriately placed in the Honors level classes, especially for Lit, Language, and History. But because the AP classes provide a big boost to GPA, which in turn affects class rank, kids pack their schedules with APs so they don’t get left behind–whether they are able to master the material or not. Then the Honors classes are undersubscribed even though they are challenging enough for many students.
My younger child is a more average student. He is Honors track for most classes, standard for a few, and as a junior, he has not taken an AP class. He works to get Bs (and sometimes even Cs) in Honors classes. Even though he is appropriately placed, he feels like he “should be” taking APs to keep up with the other kids in his class – many of whom aren’t any brighter, but who are pressured by parents, peers, and themselves to enroll in the highest level possible.
Our district weights honors classes as well as AP’s, but generally offers a choice between honors and college prep, or AP and college prep if there is more than one section. An A in a college prep class is regarded the same as a B in an AP or honors class, and students can move from college prep to AP or honors if they get an A in the preceding class. A C in an honors or AP class moves them down a level.
There is no requirement to take the AP exam after taking the class, and students from college prep can take an AP exam if they feel prepared.
I myself would be curious to know how many , and which students improve more from their baseline in the respective classes over the course of an instructional year, on the basis of diagnostic tests given at the beginning of the year. Sometimes when all students take the same final, the highest scores are not necessarily among the honors or AP students.
I have to admit that for frazzled kids, most of the motivation for taking honors or AP classes seemed to come from a desire to take classes with their friends. Some of these classes were challenging for them, but some were kind of boring and teachers would add to the assignments or recommend supplementary reading or problems to be completed for fun or extra challenge, if they showed a particular interest or moved quickly through the material.
The question is, regardless of what MIT writes on its website, which students from WWP are getting in and which are getting rejected. That is, is MIT accepting only those that take summer classes and thus max out on math by 11 grade or are they taking kids who ended up at AB Calc? Regardless of what they offer, the proof is in the admission results.
As for those who say their particular kid did not do summer school or take 12 APs and still got into an Ivy league school, it is not relevant here. The assumption would be that your kid took the most rigorous curriculum offered by his or her school. If that included 2 APs, they probably took and aced those 2 APs. But if they had gone to WWP, they likely would not have gotten into an elite with only 2 APs if the top 5% of kids are taking 12. (And I am making up the number of APs here, if not 2 APs then several honors classes).
The 150 students from WWP going to Rutgers are likely mostly kids that fall outside of the tippy top, except perhaps for some that take a full tuition scholarship in the honors programs. Kids whose parents pay for cram schools, extensive summer classes, and private tutors are generally aiming a lot higher than Rutgers.
Again, the point here is that the practice of taking courses outside of the high school to gain an advantage is having a negative impact on the overall culture and stress level at this high school, at least among the high achievers.
@LuckyCharms913 “But because the AP classes provide a big boost to GPA, which in turn affects class rank,”
At my child’s school, they weigh AP and honors the same for purposes of the schools GPA (they don’t rank). This mitigates the problem mentioned.
There are simple ways for this school in NJ (and others) to tone down the competition:
-Weigh AP and honors the same
-Reduce the number of AP offered - specifically math/science APs (instead offer honors courses)
-Get rid of class rank. Its meaningless -especially for large schools where kids are fighting for 1 or 2 points.
-Don’t promote or allow school sponsored prep courses to get kids ahead of the game for APs
-Follow the AP curriculum and don’t ‘teach ahead’ for more advanced students. If these students are so bored in these classes, they can do dual enrollment on their own coin or self study for APs.
@mom2and --when I posted about my kid not taking all those classes and still getting into an Ivy, it was precisely to agree with the damage that that kind of rat race school does. Because plainly he WAS “Ivy material” and he would probably not have gotten in if we had lived in that kind of school system–which rewards jockeying for an edge more than pure intellectual curiosity.
“The question is, regardless of what MIT writes on its website, which students from WWP are getting in and which are getting rejected. That is, is MIT accepting only those that take summer classes and thus max out on math by 11 grade or are they taking kids who ended up at AB Calc? Regardless of what they offer, the proof is in the admission results.”
The problem is still in defining admission-to-MIT as the end game. It must really suck to be among so many people who are so clueless that they think the meaning of life is admission to one of a mere handful of schools and anything else is just abject failure. But you know? Karma will get them. Their kids won’t get in and the parents will make them feel terrible and the kids will grow up and reject them – or their kids will do just fine and they’ll ultimately realize how short-sighted they were.
Parenthetically, that’s what always bugged me about the Curmudgeon story - “oh, his daughter went to Rhodes and look, she got into Yale med school, so see?” What if she hadn’t gotten in Yale med school? It’s just kicking the can down the road to think that way.
That the best colleges don’t care about more than 7 or 8 APs.
That a study hall will help your chances, not hurt them.
That the top curriculum track is not right for every student.
The importance of ECs and demonstrated student interest.
That a student’s choice of major is more important than the college they attend.
Lazy parents often:
Complain about school, but have kids in endless sports, band, dance or other activities.
Don’t understand how much more competitive college admissions are today.
Don’t understand how far average students are behind top students.
Don’t understand the increasing importance of school in a global economy.
Schools:
High schools can’t be teaching many kids a lot more, because ACT/SAT scores aren’t improving.
Offer too many APs. Should focus on English, math, science, history, language.
Need to offer multiple tracks. Our school has 4 tracks.
If you weaken the curriculum’s rigor, then tiger parents will increase the amount of outside supplementing. The gap between top students and other students will increase, and parents will complain about that.
Don’t explain to parents that study hall is often the best choice for stressed out students because they are pushing optional courses that colleges do not care about.
Agree that class rank is often meaningless – or should be. But there are two areas where I see it come into play in our school district:
The top 15% kids: The two most desirable state schools (we are in PA) are Pitt and Penn State (with Temple getting more popular all the time). Pitt requires top 5% rank for merit money. The Schreyer’s Honors College admits last year were all top 5% (that’s a small sample, admittedly, but the GC tells the kids to aim for top 5% if interested in Schreyer’s). Many of these students are trying for elites; but if Penn State is their safety, they are hoping for Schreyer’s; and if it’s Pitt, they’re hoping for merit money. So kids take PE over the summer to free up a spot for another AP class, or choose to take a study hall because taking an unweighted elective (music, art, etc.) will bring down their GPA a fraction of a point. It’s kind of sickening, actually.
The middle range kids, where having some AP classes, even with C’s, puts a kid a quartile (quintile??) ahead of his peers who are getting B’s in Honors or A’s in standard classes. For some colleges this is not an issue; but when I look at Common Data sets for not terribly selective schools and see that only 2% of a school’s admits came from the bottom 50% of their HS class, it’s a concern.
@austinmshauri I will concede that every district has its own story, but our high school seems to have been able to offer AP courses without the need to add teachers or make cutbacks elsewhere. They are just using existing teachers. For example, instead of having 12 sections of U.S. History they might have 10 regular sections plus two AP sections.
I see no shortage of electives open to all at my children’s high school, which has about 1,200 students. There is debate, journalism, ROTC, four years of French, Spanish, and German, as well as two years of Chinese, Accounting, Business Law, Personal Finance, Computer, Art, Music, Orchestra, Band, Chorus, Theatre, plus a lot of other electives within each department. There are vo-tech courses for kids who are below average academically. There is a general curriculum for average kids, who might take one or two AP classes. And there are plenty of pre-AP and AP courses for kids who are will above average.
I think it’s important to note that it is the kids themselves who decide which track or route to take, both through their performance and through their decisions on which classes to sign up for. My son has some highly intelligent friends from wealthy local families who take no AP classes. They plan to attend the local flagship and really aren’t interested in working hard. Everyone is allowed to make their own choices, and that’s how it should be.
As I mentioned before, part of what annoys me is that the school principal says he is going to limit how many AP courses students can take. A lot of colleges accept these AP credits, and a student who gets a merit scholarship to a rollover school like Alabama can get a free graduate degree by taking a lot of AP courses. The idea that some jerk principal is going to cost families tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to make lazy or mediocre students feel better is pretty outrageous.
“Lazy” is often a term applied to kids with undiagnosed learning differences. If your principal is allocating resources to “mediocre” and academically challenged students before providing free college courses to academically advanced students, then s/he is doing their job. High schools are under no obligation to provide students with a free associate’s degree, especially at the expense of other students who now have to struggle to get the appropriate, free high school education which schools are required by law to provide.
@1or2musicians “Lazy parents have their kids in endless activities? What?”
Many parents who are lazy and uninvolved on the academic side of the equation, have kids who spend a lot of time on whatever sport or activity it is. They could be doing better academically, if they weren’t choosing to prioritize other activities and competitions.
@EarlVanDorn “As I mentioned before, part of what annoys me is that the school principal says he is going to limit how many AP courses students can take.”
I understand your point. However, I can see the rationale for limiting it to, say 10 APs. I hate to see stressed out kids taking 15 or more APs for no reason.
PG: For some kids, though, MIT is the holy grail, which is OK too. Some kids will get to MIT and belong there. The kid going from my son’s graduating class was highly accelerated in math because it just came that easily to him. We have to be careful not to denigrate kids who have the ability and drive to make an Ivy/MIT dream come true. That is valid as well. Most kids are not getting into those schools, however, and end up happy and successful graduating from a slightly less prestigious school.
Really muchto learn? Every parent of an average kid is a lazy parent? Every parent of a kid that plays multiple sports is a lazy parent? That may not be what you meant, but it certainly is implied. Many parents accept their kids for who they are and know that even if their kid is “average” (which in many of the suburban schools we are talking about still puts them way ahead of the truly average kid in the wider US population) and likes to be active, he or she can get a good quality education at local State U and go on to become very successful. Many parents of average kids are anything but lazy and work very hard to get their less academic kid the help they may need to be successful. Many non-lazy parents of average kids try to find areas outside of school where their kid can excel. Why shouldn’t a school offer AP studio art or AP music theory? What makes those subjects less acceptable to the kids who excel there than BC calc or APUSH?
