Rejected applicant alleges bias against Asians

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<p>Racial and Ethnic Preferences in Undergraduate Admissions at Six North Carolina Public Universities</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.ceousa.org/nc.html[/url]”>http://www.ceousa.org/nc.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<pre><code>* All six public colleges and universities in North Carolina that we studied–NC State and UNC at Asheville, Chapel Hill, Charlotte, Greensboro, and Wilmington–show a substantial qualifications gap between black and white applicants who have been accepted for future enrollment. There was no school at which the black median SAT scores or GPA was equal to or higher than the white median for students admitted in 1995. Differences in verbal SATs range from 90 points at Chapel Hill to 50 points at Greensboro, in math SATs from 110 at NC State to 70 points at Asheville, and in GPAs from 0.46 of a grade point at Wilmington to 0.04 at Greensboro.

  • The odds of admission at five of the six schools studied indicate a strong degree of preference in admissions given to blacks over whites. These odds ratios range from 177.1 at NC State to 3.4 at Chapel Hill. The odds of admission at Greensboro, 0.97, indicate that preferences do not operate there.

  • Hispanic-white comparisons are mixed. Only a moderate qualifications gap exists between white and Hispanic applicants who have been accepted for future enrollment at many schools. The largest gap in verbal SAT scores is 70 points at Asheville, the largest gap in math SATs is 20 at NC State, and the largest gap in GPA is 0.29 at Asheville. At Wilmington and Chapel Hill, however, Hispanic admittees are more qualified than their white counterparts on verbal SATs and high school GPA.

  • The odds of admission of Hispanics to whites at Asheville, 14.4, indicates a strong degree of preference given to Hispanics over whites. But the odds of admission are reversed at Chapel Hill (0.31) and Wilmington (0.47), substantially favoring whites over Hispanics.

  • There is no evidence that Asian applicants receive special preference at any North Carolina colleges and universities. In fact, there is evidence that Asian applicants with the same academic qualifications find it somewhat more difficult to obtain admission than do their white counterparts. At every school studied, the odds of admission favor whites over Asians.

  • Earlier studies have found that the higher the school’s academic standards, the greater the degree shown in racial preference. This is less clear-cut at North Carolina colleges and universities, although NC State does have the greatest degree of preference and Greensboro has the least degree of preference.

  • Schools routinely reject many white applicants with higher test scores and grades than black applicants who are admitted.

  • The six-year graduation rates of white students are higher than those of blacks at every school studied. This is consistent with the existence of Affirmative Action and similar to what we have found elsewhere, indicating that preferences have a negative impact on graduation rates.

  • North Carolina schools would not become resegregated in the absence of preferences. There would be no universities without black admittees. Only Chapel Hill, Asheville, and NC State might lose a significant proportion of those who would currently be admitted. Those students would immediately be admitted to the other public universities in the state.
    </code></pre>

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<p>If you are familiar with Chinese immigrants, then you should know that a majority of them came into this country using the 4th preference i.e. having a sibling who is a US citizen for sponsorship. That way, the entire family can immigrate together unless there are children over 21 years of age. If the US government approves such sponsorship and there is a long waiting period (something like 10 + years), I’m not aware of any case that has problems obtaining exit visas from China.</p>

<p>It is not unusual for immigrants not to apply for US citizens because the mandatory interviews for such applications are conducted in English and there’s a quiz regarding US history and government. Many, especially if they have language problems find this process daunting. The common motivation for citizenship is a desire and a need to sponsor more relatives from China.</p>

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<p>This thread is turning from a (seemingly) pro-Asian one into an anti-African-American/Hispanic one.</p>

<p>Racism rules the day once again.</p>

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<p>As someone who has lived both in the U.S. and Canada, and who holds dual citizenship, I can assure those of you who have expressed concern/outrage/whatever about this boy’s citizenship and that of his parents, that there are many permanent residents in both countries who never become citizens. There’s no legal requirement for a permanent resident to become a citizen and, frankly, it’s no one’s business and has no place in this discussion. It’s a personal decision that each and every individual has the right to make with his/her family. I have to say that I find that there’s a lot of very thinly veiled bigotry in this thread.</p>

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<p>Thinly veiled??? </p>

<p>The bigotry is coming from both sides.</p>

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<p>It’s disappointing.</p>

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<p>One thing that particularly bothers me is that huge numbers of students believe – justifiably or otherwise – that being Asian counts against an applicant in the college admissions process. There are many threads on CC where kids express this view, and I see it at my daughter’s high school as well. It’s not just the Asian kids who believe it; the white kids agree that their Asian friends are at a disadvantage.</p>

<p>The mere fact that there is a perception of discrimination is a problem in itself.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread on CC or heard a comment from my kids or their friends indicating that anyone still thinks that Jewish applicants are at a disadvantage, so maybe at least one form of discrimination has become ancient history.</p>

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<p>“The mere fact that there is a perception of discrimination is a problem in itself.”</p>

<p>The perception of discrimination goes hand in hand with the false notions of entitlement.</p>

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<p>Mr Li’s complaint is race-based. The complaint accuses Princeton of institutional racism. Therefore, this discussion must include a discussion about race, however uncomfortable or thinly veiled. I believe it the discussion should include issues of nationalism and politics because the young man making the race based complaint is a citizen of China. </p>

<p>This is my personal experience but most of the Chinese nationals that I know well did not come over on a family sponsorship visa. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that currently something like +26% of immigrants to the US come from Asia. </p>

<p>Also, there is a cap on the number of family sponsored visas allowed by the US. The 1990 Immigration act raised the annual ceiling from 270,000 to 700,000 for 1992-94 and 675,000 afterwards (including 480,000 family-sponsored, 140,000 employment-based, and 55,000 “diversity” immigrants) </p>

<p>There are an unlimited number of visas for immediate relatives –children, parents and spouses – of US citizens, not counted under the cap but the one child policy in China limits the effect of that policy for the Chinese.</p>

<p>Some of the Chinese nationals that I know well came over as students and gained residency via job placement following graduation. These students tell me that it is very difficult to get a visa to study abroad. They tell me their parents must have strong government connections to get these visas. The parents must also be extremely wealthy by Chinese standards to pay for overseas tuition and board. Peasant children are not studying in the US, by and large.</p>

<p>Some stats on Chinese students studying abroad:</p>

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<p>Chinese students studying abroad are a billion dollar business. From the US state department:</p>

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<p>I have also read that the western ‘return-to-China’ policy is one reason why Chinese students are not bothering with overseas degrees in the same numbers.</p>

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<p>I am sure there are racist among chinese, just like any other races. I am just wondering how can you gain the friendship from those people? Mostly, with this kind of sensitive topics, people only share with those who share the same view, especially for an foreigner …</p>

<p>I am also feel sorry for those Chinese. You enjoyed their friendship and hospitality, yet your return is a full of biased generalization about chinese.</p>

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<p>People come here for a better life. A wealth and powerful chinese really don’t need and mostly will not send their kids to come here to experience enormous difficulty to learn the language and skill, and then doing mostly boring science reach work at lab or coding computer program in IT field. PLus, most wealth kids don’t have the drive to study hard either. </p>

<p>a big percentage of last 10-20 years chinese immigrants came here as a graduate students with a scholarship from University mostly in science fields.</p>

<p>Before recent Chinese economic boom, it’s difficult even for a wealth chinese to afford tuition here. without sponsorship from family here or university’s scholarship or a job invitation , you won’t get a visa from usa government at all.</p>

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<p>Cheers, what difference would this make if the young man was a U.S. citizen? How would the issue at hand be affected by that distinction? He is a permanent resident who has lived in the U.S. with his family since he was four years old.</p>

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<p>Okay. This is what’s bothering me about this thread. To argue in favor of Li’s suit, is, following the logical consequences, to argue in favor of less URMs in selective colleges. Because that’s who’s being compared here. Now, some of the posters espousing support for Li are out and out admitting that this is an acceptable outcome for them. But for others here, I have a hard time imagining that they would be really comfortable saying that that’s what they’re supporting.</p>

<p>But it is. So I, for one, would like to see those who are supporting less URMs to come out and admit that. Or else explain how Li winning his case won’t lead to that outcome. To be intellectually honest, I think, you need to either support the first, or refute the second.</p>

<p>Turning it around, those not supporting Li’s suit either need to say they support higher standards (thus quotas) for Asians, or refute that this is the motive of the adcoms. I myself find the argument that too many students with similar profiles and professional goals are going to, effectually, cancel out some of each others’ acceptances, rather than a deliberate policy, to be a cogent refutation. Not that all Asians have those profiles, obviously–in fact, though, I would bet that Asian students who don’t follow the ‘stereotypical’ profile are accepted at the same SAT rate as white students. At my S’s HS, this was generally true, and the top Asians students all went to their first choice schools (example: val, trumpet player, goal was to study history at West Point, he is). many others, though, do conform to a similar model, for many good reasons, but as has been said over and over, the greater percentage of applicants planning on majoring in the same subjects is a fact, and will lead to some of them, high scoring but maybe not as high as others, to be denied, just because the schools seek diversity of majors and interests, thus raising the SAT level . </p>

<p>The woman profiled in the Crimson article which Marite first posted shows this–she didn’t follow the “right” path or choose the “right” major as far as her community and family were concerned, yet she was accepted to Harvard. She herself basically says she defied a stereotype fostered by her community.</p>

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<p>It seems sensible to me to see this as the most logical argument for the higher SAT averages of Asian students, rather than a well-disguised conspiracy. That would be my refutation of the quota claim. but that’s just my opinion.:)</p>

<p>So, my invitation to posters on this thread–either accept a questionable goal (reducing levels of URMs vs quotas for Asians) or refute that goal as a present or future outcome.</p>

<p>You may not buy my reasoning. Fine. Either way, I’d still like to hear claims for what you think this would do to URM enrollment, and how you feel about that.</p>

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<p>Garland:</p>

<p>Thank you for reinforcing my points. 1. that stereotypes abound WITHIN Asian American communities; they are not something dreamed up by non-Asians and foisted on the latter.
2. that someone who chooses a less popular major may have a better chance of getting in than someone who shows interest in the same majors as so may other applicants.</p>

<p>I do want to make this further point. The young woman in the article probably was not admitted because she defied stereotypes. She was admitted because of more positive factors: her choice of majors, her particular strengths. In other words, it is not possible to conclude from the article that the admissions officers read her folder and said: “Aha, an Asian-American who thankfully does not fit the usual mold.” All they had to say was: “Aha, an applicant interested in such and such major instead of the usual suspects.” There is a big difference.</p>

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<p>Yes, I agree. That’s an important distinction.</p>

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<p>Sorry Garland, but I don’t accept your premise. This is bothering me.</p>

<p>From the article again…</p>

<p>"Li cites a recent study conducted by two Princeton professors as evidence for his case. The study, published in June 2005, concluded that removing consideration of race would have little effect on white students, but that Asian students would fill nearly four out of every five places in admitted classes that are currently taken by African-American or Hispanic students</p>

<p>From the paragraph…
“The study, published in June 2005, concluded that removing consideration of race would have little effect on white students,”</p>

<p>That sentence from the paragraph bothers me.</p>

<p>I think it is baloney that Whites have the right ecs and Asians don’t. It’s the same bs that used to be used against the Jews.</p>

<p>I’d like to see why Li and others were turned down. Obviously, not everybody can get into the schools. There isn’t enough room. Still I would like to see what happened.</p>

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<p>Sorry amother, my Chinese, Singaporean, Korean, Thai, Indonesian and Cantonese friends often tell me how much they LOVE me. Literally. When some (not all) admit their prejudice against blacks, they know they will get a rebuke from me. </p>

<p>We are close enough for them to wag their fingers at me too. “We have 5000 years of history! You come from a stupid baby country! What do you know?” Perhaps you do not have these honest, mixed race, mixed nationality friendships, but I do. I have many. </p>

<p>In my business, I have many repeat Asian clients. They choose to work with me over and over again, year in and year out. It is not unusual for us to socialize together after a few years working together. I like to hire Chinese nationals becaase I am fascinated by the history of China and modern day China. I like to hear their opinions and their descriptions of life in China. I lived in Asia for two years and I have travelled extensively. My son lived in Beijing for two summers to learn Mandarin and my other son plans to do the same. </p>

<p>marite is right, stereotypes abound within every culture. I am not free of stereotyping. However, not all cultures are working to eliminate institutionalized racism. Quite a few Asian countries still promote institutionalized racism as a method of political control. Personally, I think ‘tolerance’ for other races as equals is one of the adjustment that Asian immigrants must make when they move to the US. I cannot think of a single Asian country that teaches tolerance like the US education system does.</p>

<p>garland, I clearly stated that I did not want to see the US tertiary education system changed into a strictly stats-based system like the European or Asian education systems. The US system is far superior in my opinion, partly because of the porous admittance system.</p>

<p>I also stated that I believe that affirmative action–double edged sword that it is–is still needed to help alleviate the terrible injustices suffered by the African American and Native American people in the past and present day. I’d rather an URM got a hand-up to a higher opportunity–before my sons. My sons do not need that additional boost. They can, and do, waltz into opportunity.</p>

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Well, you’re entitled to think whatever you want, but I think if you phrased this less tendentiously, i.e. “Do Asians kids’ EC’s tend to be more concentrated in a few areas than is true of white kids?” you might think differently. My own limited anecdotal experience supports the affirmative response to the question as thus phrased. Among the highest academic achievers in my community the white kids have a remarkably wide range of interests, from contact sport athletes to theater to debate to, yes, science and math. The outside interests of the brightest Asian kids seem to be much less diverse. This generalization seems to be reflected in the posts of Asian kids on this website, complaining or laughing about their parents and way they push them in certain directions. I don’t know if its true, but many sterotypes have a kernel of truth in them, and there seems to be a lot of smoke here to assume that there’s no fire. It’s not so much that the Asian kids have the “wrong” EC’s as the fact that there’s so many with pretty much the same EC’s.</p>

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<p>Kluge, if what you say is true, then it will be discovered in the investigation or whatever it is being called.</p>

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<p>Dstark, the only way that could happen would be to recreate the entire application acceptance/rejection process for the entire year. Picture yourself, as a member of an admissions committee at an Ivy League school, You’ve got an ocean of applications, 90% of which come from truly outstanding students. You look at one app, and it’s a kid with a sky-high GPA, 2200+ SATs, but he or she is the tenth tennis playing pianist you’ve looked at that afternoon. Maybe the kid’s got something else going for him, but all you see is “tennis…piano…zzzzzz”. Then you look at the next application, and this kid has almost as sky high a GPA, SAT’s maybe a shade under 2200, but she’s won a statewide rodeo competition. Which one do you pick? I’d probably pick door number 2. Even though we probably don’t really need a lot of Ivy League educated rodeo riders, so what’s the relevance? Except the feeling that kid number 2 might bring something to the school that yet another really smart piano/tennis player probably wouldn’t. If kid 1 is Asian and kid 2 isn’t, does that mean I’m keeping Asians out due to invidious discrimination? Maybe, maybe not. But I’ll be damned if I can figure out how you would prove it one way or the other.</p>