Rejected applicant alleges bias against Asians

<p>you are right AA is imperfect - It does exactly opposite to what AA wants to achieve, diversity, performance gap even at college level, promoting stereotypes, rewarding underachievement, academic mismatch. </p>

<p>The people who sponsored such studies, distanced themselves once the results were known. In the closing the author (a Princeton Prof) notes the following.</p>

<p>"Many years ago, during the acrimonious confrontations over school busing,
economist Thomas Sowell observed that for many of its supporters busing had become
not so much a policy as a crusade. With a policy, Sowell explained, one asks, “What are
the costs?” “What are the benefits?” “Will it achieve its goal?” A crusade, however, is
different. With a crusade, said Sowell, the question simply becomes “WHOSE SIDE
ARE YOU ON – the Lord’s or his enemies’?”
There may be a close parallel here to the affirmative action controversy. For its
affluent white supporters – i.e. people like Derek Bok and William Bowen – affirmative
action does indeed have more the hallmarks of a moral crusade than a rationally
considered policy. Its main purpose seems to be the symbolic cleansing of an evil white
society from its racist past whose true logic must be sought in the ritual of sin and
redemption rather than an analysis of the actual costs and benefits of the policy. Seen in
this light, affirmative action becomes a form of racial penance, a public display of racial
virtue, whose emotional center of gravity lies in the expiatory needs of its guilty white
supporters more than the real needs of its intended beneficiaries. For its guilty white
supporters affirmative action is a public way of atoning for the past misdeeds of their
race. It is a way of proclaiming to black people: WE WHITE PEOPLE ARE SORRY
FOR OUR PAST SINS AND ARE TRYING TO MAKE AMENDS. The actual effect
of the policy in terms of black academic performance, race relations on campus, incentive
structures, stigma-reinforcement, “stereotype threat,” and the like become purely
secondary to this overriding symbolic and cathartic purpose. It is for this reason that
affirmative action – like a crusade – is often impervious to rational criticism.
One can get a good idea of the attachment its affluent white supporters often feel
towards the policy from comments by the former career diplomat and Harvard research
scholar Lawrence Harrison. Harrison is well aware that affirmative action has huge costs
in terms of unintended consequences and widespread hostility on the part of significant
segments of the public. Indeed, in a section on the topic in his book Who Prospers?, he
goes over some of these costs with remarkable candor and in considerable detail.29
Affirmative action, Harrison acknowledges, “is discrimination against whites, and no
euphemism can change that.” (213) He sees many other problems with affirmative
action, and cites several of the criticisms of the policy by Thomas Sowell with apparent
approval: Affirmative action has very limited public support; it is deeply resented by
many whites; it casts aside the highly worthy principle of merit; it strengthens racial
divisions within American society; and in the long run it could lead to the re-segregation
of America. (213-214) In addition, Harrison acknowledges that the policy is not targeted
at the worst-off among its black beneficiaries but often helps those least in need of help;
it taints the credentials not only of all who benefit from it, but of all who are of the same
race as those who benefit from it; it suggests to outsiders that blacks are inferior and
cannot make it on their own without racial favoritism; and once in place, the policy is
difficult to remove even after it has outlived its usefulness. (213)
Acknowledging all these problems, Harrison proposes that some time limit be set
– a kind of sunset law – after which affirmative action will cease and America will
embrace once again a meritocratic ideal. The long-range effect of continued affirmative
action, Harrison realizes, could be very harmful.</p>

<p>Continued from above</p>

<p>Steele believes that iconographic policies came into prominence in the 1960s as a
way for white people to fend off the stigma and shame that came to be associated with
being white as a result of the success of the civil rights and black power movement of the
period. As a result of the civil rights victories of the sixties, Steele writes, whites
“became identified with the shame of white racism that the nation had finally
acknowledged, and they fell under a kind of suspicion that amounted to a stigma.” (156)
Whites underwent during this period a kind of “archetypical Fall,” Steele explains, as
they "were confronted for more than a decade with their willingness to participate in, or
comply with, the oppression of blacks, their indifference to human suffering and
denigration, their capacity to abide evil for their own benefit and in the defiance of their
own sacred principles."31(498) This Fall, says Steele, added a new burden to white life
in America – henceforth whites had to prove that they were not racists “in order to
establish their human decency.”
It was this new burden of guilt and the need to prove their non-racist decency,
according to Steele, that was “the most powerful, yet unspoken, element in America’s
social-policy making process” of the 1960s and beyond. (498) This guilt- and expiationdriven
policy process, he says, sometimes wound up producing genuine advances for
African Americans, among which Steele would include the 1964 Civil Rights Act. But
the process just as often led to harmful public policies particularly in the form of racial
preferences and racial entitlements, which undermined black initiative and reinforced the
worst kind of negative stereotypes concerning black competence and character. “White
guilt,” says Steele, too often had the effect of “bending social policies in the wrong
direction.” (499) This guilt, which “springs from a knowledge of ill-gotten advantage,”
helped to shape American social policies in regard to blacks “in ways that may deliver the
look of innocence to society and its institutions but that do very little actually to uplift
blacks.” (498) The effect of whites’ hidden need for racial redemption “has been to bend
social policy more toward reparation for black oppression than toward the much harder
and more mundane work of black uplift and development.” (498)
46
The kind of white guilt that has driven much of American social policy over the
last three decades, Steele believes, must be seen not only as socially harmful but as
ultimately narcissistic and self-preoccupied. “Guilt makes us afraid for ourselves,” he
writes, “and thus generates as much self-preoccupation as concern for others. The nature
of this preoccupation is always the redemption of innocence, the reestablishment of good
feelings about oneself …. and [it] can lead us to put our own need for innocence above
our concern for the problem that made us feel guilt in the first place.” (500-501) The
moral corruption here is to be seen in the fact that when the selfishly guilty put their own
need for a restoration of innocence above the true needs of those they claim to want to
help, they often wind up doing great harm while feeling good about what they do. And in
their self-preoccupied desire to feel morally cleansed and uplifted, they develop a willful
blindness or indifference to the actual consequences of their actions.
The elite universities in America, Steele believes, have been the arenas where this
destructive, self-preoccupied white guilt has had some of its worst and most enduring
consequences. “Black student demands,” he writes, “pull administrators into the
paradigm of self-preoccupied white guilt, whereby they seek a quick redemption by
offering special entitlements that go beyond fairness.” (503) These special entitlements –
above all affirmative action preferences – are part of a condescending white paternalism,
Steele believes, “that makes it difficult for blacks to find their true mettle or to develop a
faith in their own capacity to run as fast as others.” (505) Such policies encourage in
blacks a dependency both on special entitlements and on the white guilt which produces
them. An arrangement of this kind is always degrading for all parties involved, though
especially for the blacks, Steele believes, since it encourages whites to see blacks
“exclusively along the dimension of their victimization.” Blacks become “‘different’
people with whom whites can negotiate entitlements but never fully see as people like
themselves.” (503) “The selfishly guilty white person,” Steele concludes, “is drawn to
what blacks least like in themselves – their suffering, victimization, and dependency.
This is no good for anyone – black or white.” (506)
It is hard to improve upon Steele’s analysis here. It fails to address, however, the
situation with Hispanics. In a curious development, Mexican-Americans, and later all the
Spanish-language ethic groups, were successfully able to piggy-back their way onto the
60s-era black struggle and acquire in the minds of privileged whites a similar status as
pity-and-guilt-evoking “people of color.” Henceforth all people of Spanish heritage,
including millions of recent immigrants, would be viewed through the lens of the struggle
to right the wrongs historically done to African Americans (a fact which many blacks to
this day deeply resent). In the eyes of the guilty whites, Hispanics, while they weren’t
exactly black, certainly weren’t white, and they would go on to acquire a position in the
iconography of post-60s white liberalism much like their later position in the academic
arena – i.e. between blacks and whites but much closer to the blacks. In the eyes of the
guilty whites Hispanics would become a kind of African-American Lite.
What happened to the Asians in this post-60s development was even more
curious. While they certainly weren’t either white or European, and the older generations
47
had certainly endured more than a little white hostility and discrimination, they
nevertheless were too successful – too good in school and at making money – to be
eligible for special consideration within the white-created preference regime. Hence they
would acquire in the minds of the white penitents something of the status of “honorary
whites.” In view of their newly acquired honorary status, the guilty whites could in good
conscience discriminate against Asians in favor of blacks and Hispanics, just as they
discriminated against the members of their own guilty race. Asians, however, were
accorded one modest consolation. Since their honorary white status did not entail
culpability for the whites’ racist past, Asian protests against the preference regime were at
least treated with a degree of sympathy and respect by the guilty whites which they
would never accord to similar protests from the members of their own race. White
protests against quotas were often seen to partake of an unseemly lack of shame and
contrition (when not motivated by white racism). Similar protests by Asians were seen
by the white penitents as at least understandable, though not, of course, justified.
If white guilt really is at the heart of much of the enduring support we see for
affirmative action, it suggests that at the elite universities where white guilt is so much in
evidence the policy will be with us for many years to come regardless of the verdict of
social science research. A “catharsis for white guilt about slavery, segregation, and acts
of racism” is not likely to be undone by a regression analysis. For those of us who have
long contended against affirmative action policy, the one hope on the horizon is longterm.
As generations pass and those whose views on race relations were forged by the
upheavals of the 1960s increasingly retire and pass from the academic scene, the
experience of the “archetypical Fall” and the white guilt it produced will fade into ever
more distant memory. Blacks will increasingly be viewed by a new generation of whites,
Asians, Mideasterners and others, simply as people, not as pitiable victims or objects of
expiatory atonement for guilty whites. As Asians assume a more prominent place at elite
colleges and universities, the pull of the meritocratic ideal will become increasingly
strong. And in time affirmative action will come to be viewed as a policy, not a crusade.
And as a policy it will be judged by its merits – and found deeply wanting.</p>

<p>Simba, it is very hard to read your last 2 posts.</p>

<p>After deciphering those posts, I see that you aren’t too concerned about African Americans.</p>

<p>After all, nobody else gets any advantages in our society. NO. It’s just those other people that get all the advantages. And they squander those advantages. If only they were more like us. Us…I feel so sorry for us. Us are so mistreated by society. Us are so mistreated by African Americans. </p>

<p>I can see I really have to rethink my position on Li’s filing.</p>

<p>Thanks Simba, for the wake-up call.</p>

<p>If I am reading this right after reading the arguments on this thread, I can’t see how I can support Li’s position and although, their may be similarities with the Asian experience now and the Jewish experience before, there are major differences.</p>

<p>In the Jewish experience, you had an advantaged group and a disadvantaged group and the disadvantaged group was being discriminated against.</p>

<p>Now, maybe you have a disadvantaged group (Asians) and another disadvantaged group (African Americans). They both might be discriminated against, and the remedy is to hurt the more disadvantaged group.</p>

<p>I don’t like where this is going.</p>

<p>I dislike the statistical analysis of those that are against what Li is doing because the information is so incomplete, but some of the arguments that support what Li is doing make my skin crawl.</p>

<p>From what I read in this thread, I hope Li loses.</p>

<p>dstark:</p>

<p>as the author argues, if you think you are on AA crusade, no amount of data or study is going to convince you otherwise.</p>

<p>If you think AA as a policy you should spend time reading the entire 50 pages of the article.</p>

<p>You can read my posts if make your font size smaller.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nas.org/reports/river_change/affirm-act_soc-sci.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nas.org/reports/river_change/affirm-act_soc-sci.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Simba, if AA helps people that “need and deserve” help and helps people that don’t, I would prefer this to a system where those that “need and deserve help” don’t get that help.</p>

<p>I don’t care if it is not perfect.</p>

<p>I didn’t realize the the Li controversy was really about abolishing AA.</p>

<p>My stupidity.</p>

<p>dstark: It is a free country.</p>

<p>“It does exactly opposite to what AA wants to achieve, diversity, performance gap even at college level, promoting stereotypes, rewarding underachievement, academic mismatch.”</p>

<p>AA at PRIVATE colleges was set up for the benefit of WHITE, usually wealthy students, who have to learn how to coexist in a diverse nation and world. It had nothing directly to do with benefits to minority students at all. They are “secondary beneficiaries”.</p>

<p>At public institutions, the issues are less clearcut, but one of the major benefits of AA is reducing the size and impact of a permanent underclass that is both very expensive to the state and taxpayers, and threatens the status quo. To me, this in and of itself, is enough to make AA warranted. But it has nothing to with Li’s case, which is about prestige private institutions.</p>

<p>

”embrace once again a meritocratic ideal.”</p>

<p>I think this is the result of a dream world, quite a lot of laissez-faire nonsense. America has never, at no time in its history, embraced a meritocratic ideal. The country has always been skewed in favor of white guys, and it still is. And this is not the case because of black crime. It in fact helps cause black crime. Ralph Ellison captured this very well in his novel “Invisible Man” where he shows how this state of affairs existed against blacks from their beginnings here, persisted through slavery, was virulent through the Reconstruction wherein the Klan was created to enforce it, slithered through Jim Crow, and is affecting us to this very day, causing blacks who would have otherwise been contributors to American society, to lose faith. America has never been a meritocracy, and that means unless it works to right its past, it can never be a meritocracy. If we would read American history, we might see how blacks actually developed their own plan for progress and began to work the plan. We would see how the newly released slaves actually began to put slavery behind them. We would see how they began to excel, to accumulate wealth. We would see how when whites saw it happening, they formed groups to terrorize the blacks and put an end to their dreams. We would see this quite a lot. We would see how this sad mess persisted so much it eventually caused a fracture in the black community, with one faction declaring blacks should just stay the course through the persecution, and the other claiming we must agitate for progress through protests. We would see how this agitation philosophy ultimately won, and how the culture has now changed as a result. The time to do nothing has passed. Because America refused to embrace a meritocratic ideal, we have all lost and are now suffering. If we choose to do nothing now, given the history, we are going to all suffer like few of us can imagine. We are in a new age, where nukes are going to flow into the hands of some seriously bad characters. We need a strong country, not a country wherein upwards of a quarter of its people feel like they just don’t care anymore.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Agree. Whoever thinks admissions were based purely on merit before AA is delusional.</p>

<p>Oh baloney.</p>

<p>I support AA becuase I think, while imperfect, it does work. It does give a hand up to those in need. It is a proactive method of reducing prejudice. Increasing the number of well-educated AfAms has improved their overall standing in American society. I don’t believe that wealth eliminates need in the African American community. </p>

<p>The only reason I support affirmative action is because I see gross injustices that my friends and children’s friends live with. I’m not that good a person that I experience collective guilt. No, it’s what in front of me that bothers me. Widespread higher education is a slow but permanent cure for that injustice, IMO.</p>

<p>Also, my sons both participated in many Teaching Tolerance programs in their American schools. In my opinion, those programs, a form of AA, were life changing for that generation. Life changing. From my observations, my boys’ generation is much less color aware. I put it down to the universal teaching tolerance programs, an AA emphasis on getting diversity into schools–and black entreprenuership in the music business, especially the rap business. Like it or not, rap is a form of poetry. Our kids have been listening to the rap expressions of anger, frustration, joy and love for their entire lives. We might not get it, but our kids do. I think it’s been good for them to hear the raw emotion of it. Personally, I hope it evolves into something less misogynistic–but I’ll take the good with the bad.</p>

<p>Condaleeza Rice is in the cabinet of the most pwerful nation on earth because of early AA intervention. That doesn’t cause me to doubt her strengths. Besides countless professionals who rose to positions of power and respect through AA–there are other streams of wildly successful AfAms. </p>

<p>My boys surely know, and I bet every CC student poster knows Pharrell’s middle class story in Virginia Beach and his subsequent rise to musical greatness and brand empire. They all know and take it for granted that Jay-Z is a phenomenal businessman. They know that Anhueser Busch hired Jay Z to produce a huge marketing campaign. Those entreprenuers were helped by the hard lessons learned by older black musicians like Chuck Berry and Prince. Own your music. Own your brand. They have expanded on the lessons. Develop a brand. Expand the brand into global markets. Produce a huge variety of products. Collaborate with other inventers.</p>

<p>Were all the AA programs legit and helpful? No. Some were quite upsetting and poorly devised. Nonetheless, the overall effect has been beneficial. Generation by generation, Americans are erasing the intolerance, the prejudice.</p>

<p>If you don’t believe me, move to a country where they don’t teach tolerance. Your kids will get to hear the ‘n’ word at school.</p>

<p>show me the data. as mini would say plural of anecdotal stories don’t make a fact.</p>

<p>Would you like data on the AA for rich white guys? (whoops, I think that’s already been posted multiple times. But if I were really opposed to AA, that’s where I’d start.)</p>

<p>Frankly mini, I have no problem with AA for rich via legacy admission. They bring $ to table that makes it possible for many others to attend the private schools.</p>

<p>and as many posters have claimed they are not two standard deviations behind.</p>

<p>“and as many posters have claimed they are not two standard deviations behind.”</p>

<p>Of course! They wrote the test. (They are actually multiple deviations from the norm in “rich whiteness”.)</p>

<p>By the way, other than in the developmental admits, they bring NO $ to the table that makes it possible for others to attend the private schools. On the contrary, they receive huge subsidies. In the case of my alma mater, the “scholarship” each one receives is over $100k over four years. My measly alumni contribution subsidizes the millionaires’ kids.</p>

<p>I did not know that ETS was 100% white.</p>

<p>Actually, if you knew the entire story behind the creation of SAT, you’d quickly see that is considerably MORE than 100%.</p>

<p>I do not understand MORE than 100%, but is white math different than black math?</p>

<p>Simba, in order for you to support AA, what do you need the stats to show?</p>

<p>dstark: Your choice. You choose the specific measurable goal that race based AA is trying to solve and show me the data (not a generic goal like,“if AA helps people that “need and deserve” help and helps people that don’t, I would prefer this to a system where those that “need and deserve help” don’t get that help.
I don’t care if it is not perfect.”)</p>

<p>and show me the data, and also not distracting the issue like mini, “Would you like data on the AA for rich white guys? (whoops, I think that’s already been posted multiple times. But if I were really opposed to AA, that’s where I’d start.)”</p>