<p>“That certainly appears to be very true…just look at the hate mail Kavya had received on these threads.”</p>
<p>Simba, the analogy to KV is remarkable, especially when the facts that generated the “hate mail” were very clear. Please do not tell me you still cling onto the notion that KV was treated … unfairly, or that the (in)actions of Harvard and posts on this board were racially motivated?</p>
<p>Well Xiggi, I can’t tell you about the height of the bar. But, I will say that on the HYPSM campuses you will see ‘most’ (I would dare to say all) asian kids who were academically high acheieving.</p>
<p>You can’t say that about others can you?</p>
<p>“Please do not tell me you still cling onto the notion that KV was treated … unfairly,”</p>
<p>Yes… all I am saying that hate mail writing people claimed to ‘know’ all the facts…I still maintain that no one knows all the fact. All they know is she was caught with a gun and a dead body.</p>
<p>Same thing here, just look at some of the posts interesteddad has made for Li, and as amother pointed out he was just ranting without the facts.</p>
<p>“how would it justify rejecting Asian kids in favor of white ones?”</p>
<p>There’s no indication that that’s what’s going on here. If anything, Asians are arguably losing out in favor of URMs. I don’t know of any selective school that can be accused of looking to decrease the number of Asians by increasing the number of whites. In its public relations, Princeton appears to be trying to run as far away from its white-preppy image as it can.</p>
<p>Whysostressed, stereotypes and gross generalizations are a direct result of the perceptions by others. However, there are times when a few characteristics of a group aren’t exactly stereotypes, but correct assessments. </p>
<p>It is easy to dismiss the perceptions of others or elevate them to unsubstantiated sterotypes. It is a lot harder to take the time to understand why the “sterotypes” do exist, and demonstrate their inaccuracies. </p>
<p>In the case of admissions, while outsiders are forced to speculate ad nauseam, the admissions’ officers are playing with different tools: they have ALL the files in front of them and are able to compare apples to apples. </p>
<p>None of us have that luxury.</p>
<p>“Three hours are just like a final test - a proof…like Olympic runner who just runs for few mins, but gets a gold medal.”</p>
<p>A final test of what? She had never taken a single high school class. (She had never taken a single middle school class - we homeschooled.) She prepared for it not at all. She did no workbooks. She took no previous tests. She had not a single “A” on her record.</p>
<p>Look - SAT scores do what the CollegeBoard advertises them as doing. They are not a “proof” of past “merit”, but a predictor of future performance - FOR SOME (and specifically and broadly not African-American or Hispanic students, who routinely outperform the predictions.) The very beginning premise of the Princeton sociologist’s study is flawed (regardless of whether one happens to like the conclusions or not.)</p>
<p>But that’s separate from the Asian conversation. I think that (given the caveats I posted) a study of Princeton admissions (like those at my alma mater) will determine that Asian-American students are OVER-enrolled, and Li will end up (if the complaint goes anywhere, which I doubt) having set back his “cause” rather significantly.</p>
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<p>Simba, you know that I would have to agree with that statement. However, you have been long enough on these boards to know --or at least have had to read-- about how schools do not necessarily admit a set of the best individual freshmen, but try to compose the best class possible. If that is fair or not is not for me to say, but merely to accept. </p>
<p>We also know that most competitive schools use a holistic approach that transcends the mere “measurable” numbers. </p>
<p>In the end, are there Asian students who did not “get” an admission they “deserved?” Absolutely yes. But so are tons of other non-Asian candidates! With admissions as low as 1 out 20, 95% of qualified students are sent somewhere else.</p>
<p>People can be very intelligent and smart without going to high school.</p>
<p>OK mini you want to short change your daughter - fine. You win.</p>
<p>No shortchange. She’s smart.</p>
<p>Has nothing to do with “merit”.</p>
<p>One thing that really bugs me about Mr. Li is the fact that he emigrated from China at age four, but is not a citizen. He holds permanent residency status, but not citizenship. Couldn’t that be a factor in admissions? He is free to return to China and escape any anti-Asian bias. Doubt that will happen, though.</p>
<p>He is from Livingston, NJ, a heavily Jewish & Asian town with a culture of strong academic achievement. (Side note: The quarterback of their football team a few years ago was an Asian kid. Unheard of in the world of NJ football. He was about 150 lbs., but could really scramble.) Chances are, dozens of kids from his h.s. applied to all those top schools. So not only was he likely to be compared against other Asians who applied to Princeton (a practice I find objectionable,) but also compared against other kids from his school. </p>
<p>I think his statements are pretty clear that this is a kind of moral mission he is undertaking. He feels that bias exists & wants to eliminate it:</p>
<p>"Li said in a phone interview yesterday that people have misconstrued his motives for filing the complaint. “I’m fine here,” he said of being at Yale. “I’m just doing this because I want to do something about the situation. I want to bring attention to it.”</p>
<pre><code>Currently, Li said, colleges discriminate against Asian-Americans on the basis of their ethnicity or race. “I’m not saying that people with the highest SAT scores should be admitted to universities,” he said. “Lots of things should be considered beyond that, but I don’t think race should be one of them.”
</code></pre>
<p>We all have our own experiences that color our perceptions. I used to buy into the “Asians are the new Jews” theory, but no longer do. I’ve started to see Asian kids around my 15 year old d’s age approach the college planning process in a very different way than non-Asians. At the town h.s., the Asian kids are taking classes at 0 period and skipping lunch to cram in APs. At a magnet school in the next county they are being told by counselors to “found a club” and are obediently following. They are joining the fencing team because it looks good for the Ivies. They are being tutored and prepped every day in anticipation of the SATs. Friends of my d are complaining about their “crazy Asian” parents putting the pressure on. Athletes in neighboring towns that have no-cut policies are getting frustrated at the number of Asians who just sign up, take up coaching time, but have noreal aptitude or interest in the sport – just looking for a resume boost. Asian girls in her Catholic h.s. burst into tears every time a test is handed back. The pressure is not imagined. It is real. These kids will present as VERY different types of canidates than my d and her non-Asian friends, regardless of the closeness of their standardized test scores.</p>
<p>Yes, this is a stereotype. But in my little neck of the woods, it is not one without a basis in truth. I’m seeing it be reinforced every day with example after example. Others may have a different experience, but ever since I started paying attention, that is what I’ve seen.</p>
<p>xiggi…I agree with you and about the admission philosophy (and even buy in to that). However, to deny the fact that URMs get advantages and the fact that they are not wooed by elite schools is saying sun revolves around the earth.</p>
<p>It is a fact that UM had 20 points for race. Higher than SAT scores, higher than eassay, higher than even national recognition, must tell you something.</p>
<p>Whysostressed asks why so many cc posters are comfortable with accepting a stereotypical view of “Asian” students. If college admissions officers share the biases I have seen displayed on this thread, it is no wonder Li and others are convinced there is a problem. My 12th grade son, who is white, has many friends whose parents have immigrated to the US from Asian countries; some of his friends were born overseas, many others were born here. Since this is a college town, all of these kids have highly educated parents. These “Asians” include Koreans, Taiwanese, Indians, Pakistanis, Burmese (Myanmar). The only part of the stereotype that rings true for these kids is that they are serious students, which means, in part, that they spend little time watching stupid TV programs on school nights, and virtually no time watching sports shows on weekends. They are always prepared for class, do the homework, etc. If that makes them grinds, then my kids are grinds, too. These friends of my son do many ECs, and those activities run the gamut of high school and community activities. They don’t play football or basketball, but they do play tennis and golf. They tend to play orchestral musical instruments rather than marching band instruments because marching band eliminates all science and math competitions that are held on Saturdays (the very same reason my son gave up the trumpet, by the way.) These kids do not share the same religion, food preferences, dating rules, skin color, clothing styles or political outlook. They do share the belief that education is of utmost importance for personal gratification as well as the type of success they will gain them acceptance into American society. They do not think of themselves as some monolithic group of “Asians” and they very much wish the rest of America would stop treating them as such.</p>
<p>Li’s complaint (NOT a lawsuit) is intended to give the Dept. of Education the obligation to investigate the widely-held belief among many immigrant families that a racial/ethnic stereotype is determining the personal fate of individuals as far as college choice is concerned. It is entirely possible the investigation will indicate there is no such problem. Perhaps the data that xiggi believes is “buried deeply and conveniently” will be uncovered and exposed. On the other hand, perhaps the evidence will expose a version of racism most Americans would like to see swept under the rug. In any case, the Dept. of Education spends a lot of money doing less useful things than this, so I’m not sure what all of the hubbub is about unless many of you really would rather just deny the allegation than see it investigated.</p>
<p>And one more thing, I hope the URM proponents realize that race based admissions are under attack and are cracking. Curerntly ‘Asian’ comprises mainly of Indians and Chinese. Just wait till vietnames kids come of age. There will be a tremendous pressure to continue with such practices.</p>
<p>The best things the native minorities could do would be see this coming and start taking responsibilities for their actions rather than fighting to preserve the ‘entitlement’ mentality (even currently the immigrant blacks and hispanics are the largest beneficiaries of such policies anayway).</p>
<p>One of the real benefits of this case having been filed is that the discovery process will force Princeton to reveal the extent to which Asian ethnicity plays into admissions decisions. It will also force admssions officers at other schools to take a look at the possibility that they may be influenced by negative stereotypes of Asian applicants. Maybe Li had something seriously wrong with his application and maybe he didn’t; that isn’t the point. To my mind, the point is to determine whether his Chinese background, counted against him in the admissions process. If it did, no matter what percentage of Asian students attend the U.C.'s and no matter how much more pressure we’re told Asian students experience to attend Ivy’s and no matter how damned good at cramming for standardized tests he may be, that’s race-based discrimination and it has no place in America.</p>
<p>Simba, it is obvious that URM are advantaged … that is the purpose of our AA policies. </p>
<p>And, for the record, those are the same policies that helped the Asians in the past. For a number of reason, the AA worked for this group, and that should be considered a victory for all. However, for all the hoopla surrounding the current AA policies, the other minorities are NOT making any progress, and are in fact regressing. That speaks volumes about the impact and effectiveness of the “advantages.”</p>
<p>Is there a perfect model? Does the Californian model work better than the Texan one? Hard to tell, isn’t it?</p>
<p>midmo: You bring up a good point about the conflict with Saturday academic competitions and most typical American sports. If kids come from a culture that doesn’t value these sports, it is less likely they will struggle with the decision of whether to pick football or mathteam. I think colleges take that into consideration, just as they do test scores. I absolutely agree that kids who do the homework, come prepared, limit tv, etc. are serious students. But the kid who can’t fit in forensics because of sports commitments isn’t a lunkhead because of that choice. Chances are, he is just as serious about success. Colleges are within their rights to want a mix of jocks, musicians, scholars, etc.</p>
<p>They are even within their rights to value athletes more, as they do. </p>
<p>It’s their money, and they can do with it as they choose. Any student that wants a true leg up in prestige college admissions should eat more, preferably starting at age 6. It’s no secret. There aren’t many 300 pound tackles who can do the work at Princeton, and I’m absolutely positive they’d love to have more.</p>
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<p>“That data” doesn’t need to come out of this investigation; it has been widely available from the public reports published by the College Board. The number of students who refer themseves as Asians is known, and so is the score distribution.</p>
<p>Well, I think it’s meritorious to be smart without trying, just as it’s meritorious to be athletically gifted without training, or to be born with perfect pitch. Yes, the way you use those skills also matters a great deal in college admissions and in life, but I disagree with mini that these gifts don’t play a large role in merit.</p>
<p>"They tend to play orchestral musical instruments rather than marching band instruments because marching band eliminates all science and math competitions that are held on Saturdays (the very same reason my son gave up the trumpet, by the way.) "</p>
<p>Perhaps that was the ‘hook’ for my son. :)</p>
<p>However, during the application process we thought he was at a disadvantage without those competitions.</p>