Rejected applicant alleges bias against Asians

<p>Wouldn’t it be interesting if Mr. Li’s application materials, including his essays and his teacher recommendations, became public records because of the lawsuit? He most likely waived his right to view his recommendations, but the possibility of their becoming a black hole in the case might require them to be brought to light. What if one of his teachers implied, say, that Mr. Li was a hard worker but lacked the spark of some of his classmates? Could that teacher then be sued by Mr. Li? And could the teacher then successfully countersue because Mr. Li had waived his right to see it? </p>

<p>I highly doubt Mr. Li’s lawyer will be able to prove discrimination. Princeton, and every top university, has its pick of fantastic candidates. Proving that one group is favored over another will be impossible. I think the lawsuit, if it goes to court, will make it more obvious than ever that top schools select their potential students based on a wide range of criteria and that test scores (once the minimum is met) are far less important than some believe.</p>

<p>mini, the big linemen who can do the work at Princeton are all at Notre Dame. With a free ride.</p>

<p>Midmo, I didn’t know that this isn’t a formal lawsuit. Thanks for clarifying!</p>

<p>“Any student that wants a true leg up in prestige college admissions should eat more,”</p>

<p>I will tell that to my grand kids. We failed with our son. He is a chopstick.</p>

<p>He lacks merit. It’s a fault of his upbringing. Why is it that some families, and some cultures, set up their kids for failure? ;)</p>

<p>Yes, individual Asian families do strive for excellence through education. That is a long-standing Asian value.</p>

<p>However, Asian governments are also pushing more and more of their students into the US system. Singapore recently announced a government policy to send half (!) of it’s tertiary students abroad. China isn’t sending half but they are sending thousands and thousands of students abroad as part of their competitive economic policy. </p>

<p>With official policies targeting US universities, there is no doubt that HYP are inundated with Asian applicants. Perhaps if Mr Li had been a US citizen, he would have been considered in a different light. </p>

<p>Asian governments will be watching this case very closely. Surely the Chinese government would approve of–and possibly support-- Mr Li’s attempts. He may have ruined his future in the US, but greatly enhanced his prospects in China.</p>

<p>Interesting thought…</p>

<p>mini, private colleges can do whatever they want with their money, but I believe they have to abide by federal non-discrimination rules when they make use of federal money. Federal money includes Pell grants, guaranteed loans, etc. There are a few colleges in the U.S. which accept no government money for their students, which means they must find private scholarships and loans, or admit only those who can pay; they do this in order to avoid all government interference with their institutions. I haven’t heard about any moves in that direction among the “elite” private institutions. It’s their choice: refuse the federal money and set their own rules, or take the federal money and follow the rules, however they are interpreted by the bureaucrats. Li’s complaint is premised on his family’s suspicion that Princeton isn’t following the rules.</p>

<p>I don’t really know how I got pulled into the discussion of the role of sports on college campuses. I didn’t mention it, I just pointed out that kids who can’t do marching band, in this town, must play the stereotypical “Asian” instruments, such as violin, viola and cello rather than tubas and trumpets.</p>

<p>mini, my kids could get up to 300 pounds–I do like to bake cookies–but they still would be lousy athletes. My 6-foot daughter (that was 6th grade) just couldn’t get past saying “excuse me” every time she bumped into another girl on the basketball court. My son is even worse. It is just not “in the genes”.</p>

<p>Doesn’t matter if they are lousy athletes. Do you think the 300-lb tackle at Princeton would be at Princeton if he was a GOOD athlete?</p>

<p>Again, I think that (given the caveats I noted previously), I think a study of the Princeton data (if it is anything like the Williams data) will show that Asian-Americans are OVER-enrolled, and that the case is not only without merit, but that in Asian-Americans receive too much of an admissions boost. (Please note that I have one Asian-American and one pinky-gray daughter.)</p>

<p>midmo: I brought you in because I thought most h.s. marching bands play for sporting events, especially football games. And sports, which have a bigger time commitment than probably any other EC, preclude students from involvement in many more academically focused activities. Rarely have I seen an Asian family giving their kid the choice of a big time commitment sport over an academic EC.</p>

<p>I think the Asian/string instrument focus can be attributed more to Dr. Suzuki than a marching band – mathteam conflict, anyway.</p>

<p>Mini, I hope you’re having your pinky-gray daughter treated for her tragic skin disorder. Let us know how it works out.</p>

<p>Cheers, a biochemist friend of mine spent some time in China (PRC) last year, sharing information about certain new techniques. He came back repeating to all who would listen the “warnings” he had received from Chinese officials about the new day, soon to come, when China would be the mecca for aspiring scientists, not the U.S. He wasn’t just referring to the Chinese currently coming here, but other internationals heading there instead of here. Most of the Chinese students heading here are graduate students and post-docs. Believe me, if they stop coming here, there will be a lot of trouble in university labs unless more American kids develop a taste for science and math and research.</p>

<p>Who cares if Asians are over-represented</p>

<p>I support the goal of creating racial diversity on college campuses via some form of affirmative action, although it can be irksome to see an URM student who drives a Mercedes and whose highly educated parents own two or three homes get admitted over a student with a more impressive academic and extracurricular record who isn’t a URM and whose family is only middle-class or in need of financial aid. And these situations do create resentment in the rejected.</p>

<p>But the stereotyping and vilifying of Jian Li that some have expressed in these threads is disturbing and racist. Whether this particular complaint has merit or not, the accusations of entitlement, the assumption that he must have no ECs, that he must have had a flaw in his application, that he must interview poorly, that he must have had lousy essays, are ad hominem attacks.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/MemberPortal/News/newsfeed/newsarticle.htm?id=I2878651130[/url]”>http://www.nacacnet.org/MemberPortal/News/newsfeed/newsarticle.htm?id=I2878651130&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Why should Asians only be considered for slots in competition with other Asians? Why not, at least, judge them by the same criteria used to judge Caucasians. This is apparently what they try to do at Stanford after they determined there were biases in their admissions practices.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian[/url]”>http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Also interesting, although old:</p>

<p><a href=“http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1077-3711(199424%2F199524)6<87%3AACAPAR>2.0.CO%3B2-M&size=LARGE[/url]”>http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1077-3711(199424%2F199524)6<87%3AACAPAR>2.0.CO%3B2-M&size=LARGE&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Um, divide and conquer?</p>

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<p>xiggi,</p>

<p>here is a data from WSJ,</p>

<p>“The University of Michigan may be poised for a similar leap in Asian-American enrollment, now that voters in that state have banned affirmative action. The Center for Equal Opportunity study found that, among applicants with a 1240 SAT score and 3.2 grade point average in 2005, the university admitted 10% of Asian-Americans, 14% of whites, 88% of Hispanics and 92% of blacks. Asian applicants to the university’s medical school also faced a higher admissions bar than any other group.”</p>

<p><a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...TIxMTE0Wj.html[/url]”>http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...TIxMTE0Wj.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Now, you tell me, IS a 10% vs 88% and 92% not a ‘LOT’…LOL</p>

<p>Today’s Yale Daily News has an article about Jian Li.
<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=34346[/url]”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=34346&lt;/a&gt;
From the initial reactions of people I’ve talked to about the article, it seems like Jian may very well end up upsetting some people at Yale, but that most will forget about it within a few days.</p>

<p>Amother, percentages aren’t the same as absolute numbers. It all depends on how many students from each group applied. </p>

<p>Besides, those stats say nothing about the attributes of those who applied.</p>

<p>"My 12th grade son, who is white, has many friends whose parents have immigrated to the US from Asian countries; some of his friends were born overseas, many others were born here. Since this is a college town, all of these kids have highly educated parents. These “Asians” include Koreans, Taiwanese, Indians, Pakistanis, Burmese (Myanmar). "</p>

<p>Interesting. My S, 18, has many Asian friends from a variety of countries, and I also am friends with some of their parents. In addition, I also interview for Harvard.</p>

<p>I have found that the so-called stereotypes largely hold true, though of course there are exceptions. Most of the Asians whom I encountered through S’s h.s. were excellent students who were disproportionately represented among the top students in his high schools. Most came from highly educated families, in particular having parents who were scientists, doctors and in similar fields.</p>

<p>The Asian students also tended to participate in Mu Alpha Theta, National Honor Society, Model U.N., swimming or tennis team and possibly also play a classical musical instrument, particularly piano or violin. They also tended to plan to be premed or engineering majors, fields that typically they were steered into by their parents (And, yes, I do know their parents, so know this is true) who wanted them to enter fields that the parents perceived guaranteed high incomes.</p>

<p>I can not think of any Asians who were pursuing ECs like marching band, football or basketball or who planned to major in things like the humanities, or art. I can think of one Asian American who is plannning on majoring in the social sciences. He, however, was unusual among S’s Asian friends and among other Asian students whom I’ve encountered in that his grades were not stellar and his Asia-born mom was letting him find his own intellectual passions.</p>

<p>Even 15 years ago when I ran an educational program for top high school students who aspired to be journalists, I found that the Asian students who wanted to be journalists were being heavily pressured by their parents to enter fields like medicine.</p>

<p>Anyway, I personally have not seen an Asian student rejected by Harvard who was stellar in the application pool. The Asian students whom I have interviewed certainly met Harvard’s qualifications as is the case of 90% of the students who apply.However, as is also the case of the majority of applicants (including many URMs), what the Asian students were lacking was the rarest of qualities to find in the application pool: a demonstrated intellectual passion (This means that it’s clear that the student is pursuing intellectual interests beyond what’s required for good grades) and demonstrated passion for ECs (which goes beyond getting offices for resume decoration or participating in community service to pile up the hours).</p>

<p>The very top student whom I have ever interviewed was a Korean-American who was definitely the full package: excellent (though not 2400) scores, national office in an organization that he clearly had a passion for and made an impact in; awards in art (which he had had to negotiate with his parents because they didn’t want him to pursue that EC) and math; community service in which he clearly was involved and made an impact (was demonstrated through his interview in which he literally lit up when discussing his experiences, and was able to give many anecdotes and specifics showing his leadership, impact and passion for the issue). He also had managed to pursue singing as an EC – and had to negotiate with his parents to do that, too. He was planning on going premed, frankly said that was what his parents insisted that he do, but he had found a wonderful way of combining his plans to be a doctor with his interests in art and in people, planning on becoming either a psychiatrist or plastic surgeon.</p>

<p>Anyway, when it comes to most students whom I interview for Harvard, regardless of their race, they don’t have the full package, and they don’t get in. Because most applicants have excellent grades and scores, what tends to make the difference between who gets in and who doesn’t is demonstrated intellectual and extracurricular passion. </p>

<p>Frankly, in my area, many of the white students who don’t get in have pursued many of the same EC activities that the Asian students have done, and also have pursued those activities without a high level of impact or apparent interest. I think that the Asians who don’t get in stand out to each other, though, because they are much more likely to come from cultures that have assumed that high scores will get them in. They themselves also may be more familiar with other high scoring Asians who don’t get in, and not pay that much attention to the high scoring whites who also were rejected.</p>

<p>If the Asians live in an area like NYC, New England or D.C., they also may not realize that due to the overabundance of high stat, strong EC, etc. applicants from their region, lots of excellent students of all races will be rejected from Ivies because the schools want regional diversity, too. This even is true of high stat URM legacies who would be top picks of top schools in places like the West Coast and South.</p>

<p>“Perhaps if Mr Li had been a US citizen, he would have been considered in a different light.”</p>

<p>If Li had green card, he is equal to US citizen.</p>

<p>Here are Li’s ECs, as reported by the Yale Daily News: “In high school, Li said, he was president of the intercultural organization American Field Service, participated in American Legion Boys’ State and volunteered for a community service project in Costa Rica.”</p>

<p>I’ve seen many posters on many threads claim that the Costa Rica charity mission is so overdone that it’s a turn-off to admissions officers. Is that true? My d’s h.s. runs one of those trips & I told her we have desperately needy people five miles from our house. Go work with them. She’s tutoring inner city kids & I have an extra three grand in my pocket.</p>

<p>I am an asian parent who thinks AA is benficial to a ceratin extent. But unfortunately it only helps recent immigrant from africa whose parents tends to be well educated too or parents who are very well off. It does not really help a kid who reallly need most help say a inner city student from LA or Chiacgo or NY City. AA also helps relatively well off AA students whose generation have been in USA. But there are other people like legacies, facbrats, atheletes who also benefit from college current policiries. </p>

<p>My second thought if college applications did not ask the name and only asked for Scocial secuirty number would people who are admitted would reamin same? The jewish who eneter beacuse of their hard work, merit etc. are beneficiary of these policies as there number in Ivies are very high. I wonder if college adcom did not see the person’s name and race on the application just merely scoiacl secuirty number, would it make a differnt outcome? If these color and race blind admsiiion policy change the outcome, well then a rational personell can not claim that there is not a problem? </p>

<p>Meanwhile inner city kids need resources if we have to use our future URM generation and keep them out of perpetual poverty. US and state governments needs to bring better tecahers and resourecs and concentearte on imroving math and reading levels in inner cities. If not more people will leave the cities and move to suburban areas and create more problems for who are left behind in inner cities. Thus AA policies will again benefit who really does not need help and does not help who really should have been receiving help the poor inner city youths.</p>