<p>*The school may not be “blacklisted” in the most extreme sense of the word, but it is quite reasonable to assume that their applicants may go further down the pile the next year. </p>
<p>In small schools, where each application is read carefully by several readers and they discuss the applicants as they build a class, if they have 2 equally qualified candidates and are deciding which to choose, if one comes from a school where a student renegged on an ED in bad faith in a past year, this can be cause, all else being equal, to choose the schools that teaches better morals (speaking in generalities- dont jump all over that one.)*</p>
<p>I don’t think that you and I disagree as much as I think you think we disagree. As I said, my immediate reaction was to the idea in mommabook’s first post in this thread that all future applicants from the high school would stand zero chance. Now you’re saying that while there may not be an explicit “blacklist,” it’s certainly possible that there will be a bias against future applicants. With this I agree, with the caveat that (under the conditions stated in post #66) it’s not a bias based on policy and it’s much more likely to be a subliminal bias as opposed to a conscience decision.</p>
<p>And I wouldn’t be so quick to attribute any kind of moral failing to the school that then colored its other students, unless there was some kind of pattern. Or the principal publicly announced that backing out of an ED acceptance was OK.</p>
<p>The work of an admissions officer can be complicated, frustrating, arduous, you name it. But above everything else, they want to be fair, because their reputation and that of their employer depends on it.</p>
<p>*Depends on your meaning of the word “fair”. That is a very gray concept. </p>
<p>As a general rule, winners see the process as “fair”, losers see it as “unfair”.*</p>
<p>Fair as in treating each applicant as an individual on their own merits, and based only on the record that is properly before the admissions staff. Please, let’s save any discussion of AA for another thread. Obviously, beyond standardized test scores, things can become very subjective.</p>
<p>Yup, and if an applicant doesn’t play fair and breaks the ED rules, then as has been shown in this thread that applicant can be made to feel the repercussions.</p>
<p>But what you won’t seem to consider is that it can go beyond that, whether you like it or not. Did you read post # 81? School counselors have several opportunities to educate the students that they can’t reneg (except under very specific circumstances). And they should make it clear that the transcript of an ED student will be sent to that one school, assuming FA isnt an issue, if accepted. One bad apple CAN spoil the whole barrel, like it or not.</p>
<p>In that example there is an assumption that the counselor knew this was a no-no. But maybe they were an ignoramus and ill informed, and made an “honest mistake”?</p>
<p>But what you won’t seem to consider is that it can go beyond that, whether you like it or not. Did you read post # 81? School counselors have several opportunities to educate the students that they can’t reneg (except under very specific circumstances). And they should make it clear that the transcript of an ED student will be sent to that one school, assuming FA isnt an issue, if accepted. One bad apple CAN spoil the whole barrel, like it or not.</p>
<p>If the counselor isn’t doing his or her job, then consequences other than those for just a single applicant may be appropriate. No argument there. And if every high school has and enforces a policy of only sending a final transcript to an ED admitting school, and that policy is consistently enforced (which I would have no problem with, unless the standard financial exceptions apply), then this whole argument would be moot, because students wouldn’t have the opportunity to game the ED system.</p>
<p>*Have you had a chance to read the old thread I linked? Its a short thread with only about 12 posts, but very informative. It includes this comment, written by one of our cc mods What Happens If You?</p>
<p>In that example there is an assumption that the counselor knew this was a no-no. But maybe they were an ignoramus and ill informed, and made an “honest mistake”?*</p>
<p>I read the thread. Any example will depend on the specific circumstances. Tough beans to the counselor who signed an ED agreement and then, if the agreement is broken, says he/she didn’t understand the ED requirements. Call it learning by experience. The college can evaluate the circumstances and decide how much culpability the counselor has.</p>
<p>Again, it is unlikely that counselor would know at the front end of this early decision application, but would know that the tail end especially if the transcripts are sent out. At some point they need to do their job and take ownership and responsibility of knowing the rules</p>
<p>Again, it is unlikely that counselor would know at the front end of this early decision application, but would know that the tail end especially if the transcripts are sent out. At some point they need to do their job and take ownership and responsibility of knowing the rules</p>
<p>In a perfect world, an applicant’s guidance counselor would have 100% knowledge at all times about every applicant that he/she was working with and would keep track of all the correspondence that should and should not leave the office. But as has been pointed out to me in this thread, it’s not all lollipops and puppy dogs. Hopefully a counselor working with a deceitful applicant will come to realize what’s going on and put the applicant back on the right path. If the applicant is an ED admit, refusing to send the final transcript to any other college is one thing that can be done. But if something slips through the cracks, despite the best efforts of the counselor, should future applicants suffer the consequences? At some high schools, an individual counselor is responsible for hundreds of college-bound seniors. These are the individual circumstances that I’m talking about.</p>
<p>They still have an ethical and moral responsibility to do their job correctly again ignorance is unacceptable and no excuse. As was pointed out in the New York Times article, often the college will contact the school counselors when a student renegs on an early decision acceptance. it’s not acceptable to claim ignorance it’s just not.</p>
<p>They still have an ethical and moral responsibility to do their job correctly again ignorance is unacceptable and no excuse</p>
<p>One person can only do so much. High school guidance are not omnipotent mind readers. If the counselor is competent and not willfully ignorant but a deceitful applicant still manages to violate the ED rules, I don’t think that future applicants should or would suffer the consequences through any kind of explicit admissions office policy or decision.</p>
<p>As was pointed out in the New York Times article, often the college will contact the school counselors when a student renegs on an early decision acceptance. it’s not acceptable to claim ignorance it’s just not.</p>
<p>If contact from the ED college is the first time the counselor learns of shenanigans, then hopefully he/she will take appropriate action. Are you saying that the counselor should be held responsible for what the applicant did before the counselor was notified by the school?</p>
<p>Let’s say that an applicant applies ED to school A because she favors school A, and she also applies EA to school B. Perfectly reasonable, and applicant, parents and counselor have all signed the ED forms and know the rules. Applicant gets acceptance letters from both school A and school B within a week of each other, and then decides that she would really rather go to school B. Without telling her guidance counselor, she writes a letter to school A declining its offer, without sufficient justification. School A then contacts the guidance counselor. Should the guidance counselor be held responsible for what happened?</p>
<p>Re: post 96 (you have since added another) You have got to be kidding. Thats Ridiculous. First of all, its unlikely in the big schools that you use as examples, that it is being done by “one person”. Add to that the fact that the number of students applying ED is probably comparatively small, and with all the digital tracking of college apps used by schools (naviance, etc) it is NOT HARD to track this. </p>
<p>Many college counselors belong to organizations that require that they follow their code of ethics. All you are doing is making excuses for these counselors not doing their jobs or taking responsibility for overseeing others and that it is done correctly. If my secretary /admin makes a mistake with something she sends out, it is my responsibility. I cannot claim I “didnt know”, even if in fact I DIDN’T know. It my responsibility.</p>
<p>To repeat what MrMom said in post # 77.
</p>
<p>It feels like you are merely arguing for arguments sake and its getting tiresome. I hope your ED applicant kid gets in and follows the rules fairly and ethically.</p>
<p>It feels like you are merely arguing for arguments sake and its getting tiresome.</p>
<p>You said many posts ago that you were done, yet here you still are. That’s your choice. Respond or not. It’s obvious that we have both have strongly held opinions. There’s nothing wrong with respectful disagreement.</p>
<p>Mistakes happen. People screw up. That shouldn’t be an issue. How an admissions staff assesses and responds to a screw up is. Who was involved? Who knew what when? What was done to try and fix things when the problem came to light? Is there a pattern? A conscious decision on whether or not to handicap future applicants from the same school will rest on the answers.</p>
<p>I am here still, which has been a collosal waste of my day, because you keep responding to my posts in multiple posts. But its starting to feel like baiting, so please get your last word in.</p>
<p>People don’t improve if they don’t have to accept the consequences of their screw ups. The excuses are tiresome. I expect people to take ownership of their responsibilites. I guess I am funny that way.</p>
<p>If I was a school counselor and got that call from a school, I would be mortified, would tell the adcomm that I will look into it immediately and get back to them. Then I would call the student in for a little conversation. I would see what the reasoning was for declining an ED acceptance. If they got an EA from another school, which just “happened” to offer a better FA package (just as an example, as the FA packages for EA arent commonly released then) then I’d have the student an parents in for a conference and discuss what to do, and for them to understand the potential consequences of this behavior on the school in the future. I would then also have a conference call with the school that was declined, apologize profusely, and then arrange for an assembly with the senior class (probably the junior class as well) to review the policies and procedures of an ED application. But again, thats just me. I take this stuff seriously. I don’t blow it off with “stuff happens”.</p>
<p>Again- please feel free to again pick apart my posts in 3 subsequent posts. Have at it.</p>
<p>You are asking admissions staff to be mind readers - this isn’t a court of law and state of mind doesn’t apply.</p>
<p>This is a little like that World Series call at 3rd Base, the obstruction call. Intent plays no part in the rule, the fielder must not obstruct the runner, even if they didn’t intend to and even if it’s impossible to get out of the way. Once obstruction is called, it’s up to the umpire’s discretion to determine what the right penalty is, and if the runner could have reasonably advanced, they are awarded the advance.</p>
<p>Same thing for the ED agree. Ultimately, the GC and the school is responsible for the conduct of the student. If the college decides the school is culpable in any way, or if it didn’t do everything possible to prevent the violation of the agreement, the college is free to impose any sanction it sees as fit, although I doubt it’s going to be formally announced. Things will just mysteriously happen. Not saying it will happen every time a student breaks an ED agreement, and a GC with a long term good working arrangement with a school may be cut some slack, but it is totally up to the discretion of the admitting institution how it is handled.</p>
<p>ED, and all of college admissions really, is a sort of gentleman’s agreement, where we all agree to play by the rules, where we all agree to be as honest a possible, without formal contract law and all that goes with that. There is some leeway, at the discretion of the admitting institution, in dealing with violations. You seem to think you have some sort of right to be admitted ED, and you really don’t. If you are asking for a more formal arrangement to deal with violations because of “fairness” issues, well, then the cure is going to be much worse than the disease.</p>