Relative strengths and weaknesses of Ivies

Colleges & Universities Princeton University
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<p>I’m finished with school (well, organized school, anyway… hehe) – BA from UW-Madison, MBA from Belmont. My future wife and I are getting a head start at evaluating schools and we’d love for our children to have the opportunity to attend fine schools such as those that comprise the bulk of the Ivy League. I have seen plenty of analyses and rankings based on numbers; what I ask of you is to comment on what I have heretofore gleaned in terms of the qualitative features of them – and some of this is the regurgitation of what I’ve read on other threads on this site. No offense to Cornell people, but we are looking mostly at the other seven Ivies.</p>

<p>So here’s what I think – listing a couple perceived strengths and then a perceived weakness. Please let me know:</p>

<p>Princeton

  • Great all-around liberal arts, math/economics, sciences, and social sciences.
  • Focused on undergrads… lots of money invested in each student… lots of face time with professors.
  • Deflated grading makes it very hard to get really good grades. Here C really is “average”.</p>

<p>Harvard

  • Along with Princeton, best all-around undergrad programs.
  • Sophisticated social hierarchies and built-in leadership training structure; competition.
  • TAs teach a lot of undergrad classes.</p>

<p>Yale

  • Best creative/humanities programs
  • Excellent pre-law and poli sci
  • Elevated crime stats compared to other Ivies</p>

<p>Columbia

  • Excellent, rigorous core curriculum.
  • Excellent for pre-med, journalism, education.
  • Probably the least undergrad-centered of the Ivies.</p>

<p>Brown

  • Highly flexible curriculum
  • Fairly laid back, happy students
  • (but…) Lack of a sense of community</p>

<p>Penn

  • Top-notch business programs
  • Pre-professional setting (pro)
  • Pre-professional setting (con)</p>

<p>Dartmouth

  • Top-notch language programs
  • Undergrad-centered, like Princeton
  • In the middle of nowhere (some would call this a pro, of course…)</p>
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<p>If this is real, I feel very sorry for your future children.</p>

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<p>Dont mind him, I would have loved if my parents were half as informed of what it takes to get into iveys and pushed me harder because of it. Your kids will thank you when they graduate, but might also have problems feeling like you never truly “accepted” them for who they are. I would however suggest widening your scope, im not sure why you put Harvard on the list but not MIT, etc. there are many universities that rank above the ivey leagues in certain fields; for your childrens sake, keep your options open.</p>

<p>Sent from my SGH-T959V using CC</p>

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<p>Apologies for misleading – we’re not going to try to push them into anything; she and I will do our best to send them to any school they desire. We’ll say, “if you can get in, you can go.”</p>

<p>I’m just trying to wrap my head around those seven schools <em>just in case</em> they want to move in that direction… so that we’re as prepared as possible to give advice, should the kids request it.</p>

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<p>Wait, you haven’t even had children yet and you’re planning this out already? Damn. So prepared.</p>

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<p>So, per se, this is simply a request for your opinions on the relative strengths and weaknesses of those seven Ivy institutions. If/when the kids come, and should they request info on Ivy schools, we’ll still have our notes. </p>

<p>should you decide that we’d be better served to ask this around the time they are in, say, high school… i would understand. but if you’ve a few minutes to share your experiences/opinions now, it would be greatly appreciated.</p>

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<p>Hmm, well my brother’s probably biased since he’s at Yale, but he says that the general train of thought is that Harvard doesn’t pay their undergrads as much attention as graduates. Maybe he’s wrong though.</p>

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<p>I’m Princeton '16 and part of the reason I’m so happy with it is because my parents encouraged Colorado College, Colby, and Bowdoin just as much as they did Princeton, Yale, and Harvard … that is, not at all. They told me how much they were willing to pay (they said they’d pay for my plane tickets and that’s all) and left it completely up to me. I felt like my accomplishments were MINE and I felt absolutely no pressure to apply or to go to Princeton (or any other Ivy for that matter). Prezbucky, it seems that you’re already giving this way too much thought. I’d encourage you to not even mention anything about those schools until your child brings it up (whether that be in elementary school or senior year). Let them discover the Ivies for themselves. </p>

<p>Part of your problem is your high level of education. My dad dropped out of HS, got his GED, dropped out of community college, and then dropped out of a regular state school. My mother was raised in Mexico and dropped out of college there as well. They are both very happy people. Something that your future kids need to understand is that Princeton/Harvard/Yale/etc won’t make them happy, especially not if its coming from above (meaning, you parents). Let them live a little, discover their interests, and if they choose to go to XYZ community college, embrace that and be proud of them. Most likely, their standards will not live up to yours if this is the track you’re on already. And even if the Ivies ARE right for them, let them choose whether it’s Harvard or Cornell, Dartmouth or Columbia. Maybe you wish you could go back and apply to a top-notch school, but let your kids live their own lives.</p>

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<p>We’re just going to tell them that they can go wherever they want to, if they want to go to school at all. And… if they wear colors as kids, heaven knows my folks will fill their dressers with Wisconsin and Packers stuff. It’s not like we’re gonna put them in Princeton or Yale onesies. hehe</p>

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<p>I’m going to chime in with alexcuad: I’m a '14 whose parents made it clear that I was going to college – like, that was an assumption throughout my life – but that was all. I found out that Princeton existed by doing a CollegeBoard search based on average SAT scores. No lie. It was never on my radar. But guess what? I did just fine. :P</p>

<p>Your list of impressions seems relatively accurate to me (though few people are straight-C students even with grade deflation at Princeton…) but, these things change quickly. In 15, 20 years this list might be completely worthless. The schools will certainly be different places, and different programs might gain in relative strength. </p>

<p>You say that you’ll tell them that they can go where they want to, but if you spend your time fantasizing about your child’s future school BEFORE the kid is even alive…that will probably come across, and your kid will probably feel like they HAVE to go to one of these schools.</p>

<p>Also what makes a school good / bad, relatively, has a lot to do with the individual person involved. So it’s way too early to be able to make those kinds of judgments, right? ;)</p>

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<p>Whhhatttt!??!?! Brown doesn’t have a lack of a sense of community. If anything, I would argue that Brown has a greater sense of community than Columbia.</p>

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<p>I admire that you’re looking ahead, but I think that this kind of differentiation based on very subtle distinctions between schools could do more harm than good. With the wealth of information that will be spread across the internet and other media over the next couple of decades, a teenager with scholastic aptitude and academic drive at top-tier levels will be more than capable of doing any necessary research on universities independently and forming his or her own impressions, which are much more valuable in college search and selection (and finding the college that fits best) than input from others based on general reputation. I would be shocked if, fifteen years from now, the top-tier universities hadn’t established an excellent medium of communication for prospective students to talk to current students and faculty, which is probably the best source of information available without visiting campus in person. Rather than trying to inform your kids yourself, encouraging them to do their own research will probably benefit them the most.</p>

<p>P.S. The average grade given at Princeton is just under 3.3. A B+, not a C, would be considered an average grade in most courses.</p>

<p>P.P.S. If you want a look at some comparisons of Princeton to its peer schools, written by people who attended both (one for undergrad, one for grad school), Princeton’s Prox ran a series of them a couple of years ago called Orange and Apples. Here’s a link: <a href=“http://dpprox.blogspot.com/search/label/Orange%20and%20Apples[/url]”>http://dpprox.blogspot.com/search/label/Orange%20and%20Apples&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I just do not buy that this post is for real.</p>

<p>A) Most UW-Madison grads are intensely loyal and would never ask such a question about other schools</p>

<p>B) Most recently minted MBAs have better things to do than speculate about a scenario that is literally decades away, if at all</p>

<p>C) Most people with two degrees have better ways to find “qualitative” information about any subject than asking a random panel of internet users</p>

<p>The two Princeton undergrads who have commented are giving you good advice. You should take it.</p>

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<p>I couldn’t believe this! You are thinking about college for an unborn child?</p>

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<p>Given that students are not leaving these schools with any debt at all, or very little… and the quality of the education… just seems like a no-brainer for us to investigate the situation, to educate ourselves.</p>

<p>I can tell them about UW.</p>

<p>She can tell them about CU.</p>

<p>We are new to the Ivies and want to “get” them.</p>

<p>But… as someone pointed out… so much can change in 20 years. </p>

<p>But how much changes really, and to what degree?</p>

<p>This brings me to a related topic: there’s this article by Edward Tenner, written back in 1984, about the distinct styles of H, Y and P.</p>

<p>The guy basically characterizes them as follows:</p>

<ul>
<li>Harvard is magisterial</li>
<li>Princeton is private</li>
<li>Yale is theatrical</li>
</ul>

<p>I found it to be an interesting, whimsical read.</p>

<p>If you haven’t yet read this, check it out:</p>

<p>hhttp://<a href=“http://www.edwardtenner.com/”>www.edwardtenner.com/</a></p>

<p>It’s along the left margin, about 80% of the way down. It’s titled “Differentiating the Big Three”.</p>

<p>Have a great weekend, people.</p>

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<p>“We are new to the Ivies and want to “get” them.”</p>

<p>Still…why do you care? You presumably have a nice decade- or two-long break from worrying about college for anyone in your family. Why is this worth speculating about right now? I still don’t buy that you are for real.</p>

<p>You say, “Given that students are not leaving these schools with any debt at all, or very little…” </p>

<p>Is this why you and other people are Ivy-obsessed? PLENTY of people pay full price for Ivies or go into debt to pay for them. Somehow, despite all your education, you are buying into a lot of myths. You have no idea how much money you will be making 20 years into your career. Why do you care now? You are not “new to the Ivies.” Surely you knew which Ivies had great business schools when you applied to MBA programs. I just don’t buy that you are for real. Isn’t there some kind of website like this for preborn children?</p>

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<p>Prezbucky, why not ask those Ivy questions now? Most people who have had kids know - once they come, the time for whimsical daydreaming is gone - you will fall asleep! :wink: </p>

<p>As parents we only found out about the Ivy’s a couple years ago, and this fall our son will start at Princeton. It would have been nice to know a little more ahead of time but things worked out well. But I can see how it would be fun to dream about who your kids might grow up to be and what they might do! And it’s completely possible to do it without becoming a controlling/steering parent.</p>

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<p>You say you’re open-minded about the college your unborn child chooses and then you write off Cornell for not being good enough…</p>

1 Like
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<p>@SAT200 He didn’t just knock out Cornell off the bat, but every single elite school in the country except seven Ivies.</p>

<p>You’ll be lucky if any of your kids have the stats for Cornell and other elite schools.</p>

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<p>With respect to: undergrad engineering, architecture, creative writing, business, and pre-vet Cornell is toward the top of the Ivy League; and in regard to the physical sciences in general Cornell is also at the upper level their league. The occasional disrespect shown Cornell by kids in this forum usually relates to pre-frosh wishing to inflate their fragile academic egos. Students who manage to get accepted to any one of the top 25 colleges should be grateful. Each one in its own way is a venerable school.</p>