<p>p3t-
The way I understand it, the “yeshivites” are a sect like the hassids, but whereas the hassidic sect is slightly more into the music and the culture, the "yeshivites were far more wholly focused on study (and we should consider it a “mitzvah” to give them lots of money so they don’t have to work and instead can spend their time studying torah and talmud). As for the rabbinic father, he would have preferred to have had an orthodox congregation, but there was not an opportunity available whre he lived, so he took the position at the Conservative synagogue. At home he practiced and considered himself Orthodox, which is whay he was so hurt when some of his own children would not eat at his home.
Hope I am being a little clearer…</p>
<p>I think my D is using religion in part to fill the hole left by dance, try to appease her somewhat estranged father etc. Doing what I do- cancer in kids- it’s really hard to think there’s a deity up there that gives a hoot, so I am rather uncomprehending of the whole thing.</p>
<p>I just find it really sad that religion trumps family…that some reliative stranger and some book can tell you who to eat your meals with</p>
<p>How can a leader of any church, and I am not just talking about the Jewish faith here as this is in many different practices, that you can’t share part of your life with “outsiders”</p>
<p>How does a Rabbi or Priest or Minister justify this teaching that your own parents aren’t good enought to break bread with</p>
<p>I gather from your postings she’s in her senior year of h.s., and about to go to a nearby Ivy. At her age, of course, she might be experimenting with her wings and chose an important family moment to say, “I can make my own choices now, I’m almost in college.” </p>
<p>Wondering if she can take a solid academic course as a freshman in Intro to Judaism, or History of Judaism. In an academic setting where the focus is on critical thinking (not joining), she can size up many choices. That’s different than pursuing one particular movement of Judaism. </p>
<p>Chabad weighs in heavily with uninformed students. My advice (which I"m FULL of tonight…) sounds counter-intuitive, but were she to study in her new academic context, with intellectual teachers, she can more freely explore a range of ideas and philosophies to her heart’s content without anybody trying to rope her into a single system of practice. </p>
<p>You are right that Chabad is successful with young people who long for connection and spirituality in their lives, but there are many ways to achieve that for her without buying into an orthodox lifestyle. Chabad’s warmth and touchy-feely approach is very attractive, especially if a kid has no mooring of her own religiously. </p>
<p>jym626, Hassidism began as an offshoot of European orthodoxy, emphasizing strong emotional connection during prayer. It grew up in direct reaction to some of the highly scholastic yeshivot in Europe, which could be rather pedantic and tedious. At a yeshiva, a scholar (who had the wealth or found the FA resources to study rather than work fulltime) learned many texts to reach understandings and become a more righteous individual.</p>
<p>Hassidim said this all was not necessary, for by chanting one line of a text repeatedly and with great feeling, one could gain understandings as well as by studying thousands of lines of text. It was an emotion v. intellect debate, and also made religion more available to poorer people, too. </p>
<p>After a while, Hassidim became so anti-intellectual that the pendulum swung back again to a group called “Mitnagdim” (“against”) who aligned themselves with ideas and philosophies of the European enlightenment, available in university texts. That impulse developed into Reform Judaism, which defined all the rest of Judaism as “Orthodox.” Conservative Judaism emerged decades later in the U.S., in response to some of the radical changes of Reform. The Reconstructionist movement brought in other ideas about a God in nature. </p>
<p>Getting back to the OP, there are many possibilities for your D to express herself here. The more she knows, the less Chabad will seem her only option for a spiritual dimension to her life.</p>
<p>Wow, what a great distilled course in Jewish history p3t. Thanks! Now if someone could as succinctly explain the various branches of the protestant movement, I’d get a few more historical ducks in a row.</p>
<p>^^that’s the post I want to read, too. I’m tired of me. Feeling that I overposted on this thread, I encourage others to post their own valuable thoughts and ideas to help this OP!!</p>
<p>Your thoughts… ?</p>
<p>p3t-
I was beginning to wonder if thre would be a quiz at the end of this thread :)</p>
<p>Being at the “very reform” end of the spectrum, all the bru-ha-ha with the factions in my h’s family was fascinating to watch from afar. Sadly, they had and unfortunate way of offending several members of the family without realizing it, I think, and the battles continue. My point in telling all this is in hopes that the OP will get things resolved with her dau. I think your idea of encouraging her dau to take a class on Judaism in college is brilliant!</p>
<p>I am a spiritual person and elder in my church, having had a what some would call a born again revelation some years back as a young adult.</p>
<p>But i have always looked suspiciously at religiosity which places the letter of the law, ceremony, and ritual above the spirit of the faith. And this can occur in every religion. Any religion which claims to have all the answers, is intolerant of other faiths and is willing to sacrifice the two great commandments for doctrinal purity seems to me to have lost its way.</p>
<p>So to the OP, while you should be happy that your daughter has chosen to be an observant Jew, she should examine her zeal to pracitce her religiosity at the expense of her family. The Passover seder is a wonderfully powerful ritual for Jews but the minutae of its practice should not be used as a tool to separate and harm familial relationships imho.</p>
<p>Black Hats…</p>
<p>Dufay, for a different perspective, you might wish to visit the blog [Beyond</a> BT - Torah for Growth Oriented Jews](<a href=“http://www.beyondbt.com%5DBeyond”>http://www.beyondbt.com), which is run by b’aal teshuvah (newly observant Jews). You may also want to read some of the books by Azriela Jaffe; they are called something like “What Do You Mean, You Can’t Eat in My House?” and are geared towards families dealing with these issues. </p>
<p>CGM, it’s not as simple as you portray. If the daughter is truly turning towards Orthodoxy, then she cannot eat in a non-kosher home (without accommodations such as those that have been mentioned above). <em>I</em> don’t personally get it, being Reform myself, but I have great sympathy for Dufay facing this situation.</p>
<p>No, for someone’s food to take priority over family seems to pretty much fly against what religion is supposed to espouse- the love of family and others</p>
<p>when diet takes priority over family, and the is encouraged by your religious leaders, I find that just wrong</p>
<p>I find it a way of forcing people to choose between family and a practice and I would think that would be the opposite of what a God would want…</p>
<p>I</p>
<p>^^CGM, I share that concern when ritual divides extended families of the same faith, but in fairness there are also Jewish religious leaders with more liberal interpretations pushing back to maintain plurality and diversity within this faith. I know that the credibility liberal Jews accord ultra-orthodox co-religionists is not returned in kind.</p>
<p>As the OP demonstrates, and she’s not alone by any means, it’s very hard for families to find the language to discuss these things well when one party is newly excited to try out older pathways, but the rest of the family sees no good reason to suddenly change patterns. It can make for hard feelings, unfortunately and unnecessarily. </p>
<p>Some families seem to weather it while others get very upset over the changes, which I think might compare to the upheaval when a child is discovered to have a food allergy so severe that many kitchen practices must change to accommodate the new reality. Suddenly the mom has to start reading food labels, watching out which pots she’s using for whom, and so forth. While an allergy is obviously not a matter of choice, the religious pathway is, so the parents are astonished someone would take on a more rigorous program than they themselves raised the child to follow. Meanwhile, the child enjoys the discipline and comraderie that accompanies the newfound/old path.</p>
<p>dufay,
Wondering how things worked out for you for the seders… Hope things managed to resolve themselves.</p>
<p>D attended first night at a local Modern Orthodox family. This is a high achieving family, with kids in med school etc etc. Second night with us, and I think she was disappointed we didn’t do after “Festive Meal” prayers all the way through (there was a LOT of clean up! Can’t put the fine china in the dishwasher!), it was OK. She hasn’t yet observed strict kashrut in our house, and I dread when that occurs. I did get the book by A Jaffee, and will read.
For dorm housing she entered “keeps kosher”, so I suspect she will end up with orthodox girls. Doesn’t make me happy that the University segregates in such a fashion, particularly for freshman. They can eat at Hillel, but living with others who differ from you is an important part of college, IMO.</p>
<p>“I predict … by next year at this time she will be more reasonable.”</p>
<p>I hope that this is true. But I don’t predict it.</p>
<p>dufay: I’m glad things worked out reasonably well for the family. The issues are complex and thorny when one member of the family is far more observant than the rest. As I suspect you are aware, there is a very large, very robust Orthodox community at the Ivy to which I believe your D is headed, including a large number of students who self-identify as Modern. There are also a good number of right-wing Conservative (Jewish, not political) students. I hope your D will find the structure and fulfillment she seeks among these students who, though religiously observant, are definitely “of the world.” </p>
<p>p3t: Great, great posts on this thread.</p>
<p>I’ve seen these issue play out over 30+ years in a number of families, and most of them get more reasonable (on both sides) over time. Not all, but most. People do care about their connections to their families, and learn by trial-and-error how to accommodate each other without feeling like they are being untrue to themselves. People care about their religion, too, though. The Passover Seder is one of the high points of the year for most Jews – emotionally, it probably has the weight of Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve. I can sympathize a lot with both generations here: the mother who wants her daughter with the family, and the daughter who wants a more meaningful experience than she has gotten at home.</p>
<p>I want to add my thanks to p3t, too. Wonderful, generous, and accurate.</p>