<p>My lovely D, after years of serious dance, realized that she was unlikely to get a job, and has been accepted to local Ivy. I think a large part of why she decided to apply ED was connections she had made during an applicant Shabbaton. She aspires to observant Judaism, and has connections with local Chabad ( ultra-orthodox) as well as modern orthodox. Rest of the family (which includes stepfather) is not religious. My stepdaughters are in town for 2nd night of Passover, so I was planning a family seder for that night. D has informed me that “it’s not a real Seder” so she will be going to Chabad for both nights. Doesn’t family trump all? Furious argment ensued.
I am very afraid of “cult-like” religion, alienation from family etc.</p>
<p>Oh this is a real problem in some families. What I honestly recommend is for you to quickly call upon a rabbi from a mainstream orthodox synagogue in your area and seek emergency counsel.</p>
<p>Some of the ultra peers in Chabad advise newly excited ba’al t’shuv (“returnees”) to avoid eating at the parents’ home, while the more settled and mainstream ordained orthodox rabbis counsel a different path in which “honoring parents” continues to play a central role, even while new rituals are developed within a younger generation. </p>
<p>If I were in your position, I’d ask her to attend one night with family and one night with Chabad. Bring out a pre-sealed meal for her with plastic utensils and don’t give her a hard time about what she eats. Tell her that the family contact, conversation and warmth matters as much as the ingredients.</p>
<p>EDIT: If you want to speak her new language, tell her that by absenting herself this way, she’s denying YOU the mitzva (commandment) of telling the story to your children. Let her think about that one…</p>
<p>REALLY don’t make a big deal that she’s not eating your food or from your plates. Go plastic and preserve your relationships.</p>
<p>I’m speaking from a few generations of experience with these divisions, and they don’t have to be divisions. </p>
<p>Side reading (novel): “Lovingkindness” by Naomi Ragen, about a mom and daughter with this schism.</p>
<p>This will only become a major issue if you allow it to be. Your D has a right to her religion just like you do…I understand why you’re upset, but instead of getting furiously angry with her, sit down and talk to her about her new beliefs and how it can play in to your family values. CALMLY. No one gets anywhere when there is yelling involved.</p>
<p>Talk to a local rabbi who is not affiliated with Chabad; they might have experience with congregants’ children joining Chabad. It isn’t a cult but there are cultlike aspects (our local Chabad sent all Jewish last name households a warm and fuzzy invitation to their seder with a glossy picture of a really yummy looking roast chicken). Unfortunately you should probably not make a big deal out of where she spends the seder. It sounds like she is trying to make you feel guilty about your level of observance.</p>
<p>Other creative ways around this year: ask her to prepare herself a little portable seder plate in the Chabad kitchen with her own parsley, egg, etc. and invite her to bring it, sealed and plastic wrapped, to the table just for herself, not to share, so she can partake when all the blessings are said. Then it’s a “real seder.” </p>
<p>I’ve found that if you accommodate the food part of things by letting people bring in their own food in paper bags, and you let go how that looks to you,
the visiting can all happen. </p>
<p>My MIL took great offense when her kitchen was questioned by 2 of her 5 boys. I handle the same BIL’s differently, making sure they have paper plates and provisions for when they visit. We eat as usual right around them.</p>
<p>I also don’t let them boss me around in my own kitchen, and stopped being defensive long ago. I realize it’s harder for a mom than a SIL to detach.
Don’t try to remake yourself, but urge her to find creative adaptations with you so that life can go on as mother and daughter.</p>
<p>Even with all the accommodations our family has made through 3 generations on this stuff (from Reform through Orthodox), Passover is the hardest one to accommodate.
Some young Chabadniks might avoid their own homes that week, and she might be getting that as a “solution” from them, but it’s a very uncreative solution. Keep trying to solve the problems with her…</p>
<p>Never let her describe you as “not religious.” Rather, you’re “not traditionally observant.” Stay on top of the language used, so you both have the self-respect. Sounds like she’s not the only “religious” person here.</p>
<p>Food is not the issue. According to her- it’s the actual service. I lay out a traditional seder plate-using the plate from my great grandmother, and we go through the Haggadah- in English. Yes, we abbreviate portions, and there is no prolonged discussion as in some other families, but again, I think there is more to her feelings than that. My stepdaughters live far away, and I think it’s only right that we sit down as a family.</p>
<p>Can you and the other relatives just let her lead the seder one night the way she wants? (maybe women can’t do that, I’m not sure) Or will that make husband and stepdaughters leave to find another sedar?</p>
<p>Ah, the zeal of the newly converted. 
I predict if your D won’t compromise by attending one seder at Chabad and one at home with family, by next year at this time she will be more reasonable.</p>
<p>Does she have the ability to lead your seder in order to incorporate more Hebrew, if that is what she wants?</p>
<p>And it doesn’t matter what language is used…as long as the story is communicated, matzah is eaten, and the 3 essentials are explained: “Pesach, matzah, and maror.”</p>
<p>Is there a possibility that she can eat with the family on the third night, so that no seder is involved?</p>
<p>Your family traditions sound very beautiful indeed!</p>
<p>A woman can most certainly conduct a seder, but I’m not sure the D will feel she knows enough to do so and would rather learn new things from another seder. That doesn’t have to insult yours; it could expand yours. As long as the Chabad folks haven’t convinced her that your seder is bad, which it certainly isn’t, I truly hope she’ll open her heart and mind to attend both this year. </p>
<p>Hesitating to ask, but: do you think she’s avoiding sitting down with the stepsisters and is just using the level of observance as an excuse here?</p>
<p>Either way, an exciting response would be to encourage her to go to Chabad the first night, and contribute some ideas she picked up there at your second-night seder.</p>
<p>The reason I emphasized the food is because the key elements of the seder, ritually, are several blessings over food items on the seder plate. For some, the background kitchen where the food is prepared is important, too, but perhaps not for her. Another key element is to tell the story, which can be done in any language. And a few other items, all listed in any Haggadah in any language. </p>
<p>It occurs to me: if she observes the first night to her own satisfaction, she might be interested to learn that the second night is not Biblical, but a Talmudic modification established during the 2,000 years of the Diaspora, due to uncertainties about when the sun set in Israel. But people have Diaspora-based traditions, hence the two nights for some (not for Israelis, not for Reform, because we know the calendar today in modern Israel once again).</p>
<p>This is why I thought a mainstream orthodox rabbi (not Chabad), whom she’d listen to and respect, might counsel you both. Chabad thinks they know everything, but they don’t. If your D is interested in both pathways, and you can find your way to a mainstream orthodox advisor for group counsel this year, it might work best all around. </p>
<p>I can understand why your feelings are hurt, but I think you can counter with some knowledge and information, if you choose to pursue it.</p>
<p>PS, If it’s Hebrew she thinks should be there, she can find transliterations of the key prayers on the websites, and provide them to the relatives around the table. That needn’t be an evening of Hebrew, but just the key one-liners, around 5 prayers/benedictions for the items on the seder plate. Every time you say “Blessed are you…who created… who commanded…X.” The rest can be in English, in fact in my personal opinion it’s better off in English because the point is to discuss the story. Even the famous “four questions” aren’t mandated; they’re given as examples of the kinds of questions that could be asked. </p>
<p>I really hope you can work something out with her for this year, just to keep the family dialogue going. It’s not necessarily true that it will all go away by next year, although that’s possible, too. </p>
<p>I also liked Chedva’s idea (3rd night dinner) which de-pressurizes it for this year. </p>
<p>I’m sorry I assumed it was the food. If it’s really about the service, that’s in a way easier to resolve, if both wish to try. </p>
<p>You could put the ball in her court and ask her write down the key elements of the seder, the essential blessings and activities. She’ll have to research it. Then, together, you might figure out a service that she CAN conduct this year within her family, if the stepsisters will let her try.</p>
<p>sorry, I know women can lead seders in reform or conservative settings, but wasn’t sure if seders Chabad would approve of could be led by a woman.</p>
<p>I like p3t’s advice. 
Nice job.</p>
<p>A seder is a home-based ceremony. Chabad doesn’t approve seders in the OP’s home. The range of religious practice pursued in this country is very large, and apparently was “good enough” to transmit it to the daughter thus far. I feel it should be appreciated and respected by the D, and attended, even if it’s not exactly to her liking at this moment. The mom can do things to make a bridge for the daughter if she wishes to be a bit creative here.</p>
<p>I can very much see why this OP is upset, and am sympathetic to the mom.</p>
<p>The D shouldn’t be making this an “either/or.” Chabad doesn’t have a monopoly on how to run a seder. The D may be very, very interested in what they are doing, but I feel D is making a big mistake to tell her mom that a seder from a Haggadah isn’t a “real seder.” It is a real seder, and more importantly, it’s THEIR seder.</p>
<p>If key blessings are said, the story is read or told, family is gathered…it’s a seder. Am trying to support the Mom, actually, and help her see through some of the religious zealotry that causes some (not all) Chabad folks to ditch their family observances as not “good enough.” There’s truly no need to attend two Chabad seders and no family seder, unless someone is out-of-town from home, which isn’t the case here at all.</p>
<p>Forgive me, I feel like I’m on a soapbox or something. I think having lived through so many permutations of this within my family, my feelings run strong to defend religious plurality within my own faith.</p>
<p>dufay,
P3T has some good ideas… Any confrontation with your daughter will only make the matters worse. Chabad can be very aggressive in their ways, and at this point you don’t want to make her have to choose between the family and Chabad - under their pressure she very well could make the wrong choice…</p>
<p>Don’t shoot the messenger, but religion is imaginary and family is real. Hopefully she’ll get her priorities in order.</p>
<p>She did get her priorities straight, apologized etc. Looks like first night will be with a local (Modern Orthodox) family. Although she has a good head on her shoulders, and I have stressed that a woman must be able to stand on her own financial feet, I am at times afraid of losing her to what I consider zealotry. These kids are so impressionable.</p>
<p>I was raised as a mainstream Protestant, but in college became involved with a fundamentalist Christian group. But by my senior year I was becoming disillusioned with their sexist views, and I after graduation I did not continue an affiliation with them. Now I am married and Catholic, and some of the people in my college fundamentalist group didn’t think most Catholics were truly “Christian” because they didn’t take the Bible literally! I guess my point is that many people try on different belief structures during college, it doesn’t mean it will stick. Your D is trying out a more “extreme” or conservative form of what she was raised with, which is similar to what I did. </p>
<p>I just recommend keeping an open dialogue, and not being too harsh. Let her know that she is hurting you by telling you your traditions are not “good” enough (use the Hebrew words if that helps), but don’t accuse her of anything. As long as she knows you respect her beliefs and you expect her to respect yours, and she feels comfortable talking to you, you should be able to eventually resolve any differences or conflicts.</p>
<p>Caveat - my cousin’s car broke down the week before she graduated from college, the nice guy who helped her was a Moonie. Cousin has now been an active member of the Rev Sun Young Moon’s church for 30 years, and is in an arranged marriage (which has actually worked out, her husband is very nice and they seem quite compatible and happy). Broke her Lutheran parents’ hearts, but they stayed open to hearing from her and welcomed her for visits. After living all over the world, cousin & hubby are now living in her home town and are close to her sisters. But it was crucial that her parents and sisters maintained an open line of communication, or they would have “lost” her completely.</p>
<p>dufay,
I am so glad to hear that it worked out!
You are right to be afraid. But you have to be careful not to let your anxiety push her away from you, as Chabad will be there with open arms to catch her…</p>
<p>dufay-
I am also glad things are workiong out. My h’s family has several factions of varying degrees of religious… intensity, shall we say? They range from the “any-more-reform-we’d-be-catholic” jews (no offense to anyone… it is just the way we kid about this) to the ultra religious “yeshivites”. P3T- are you familiar with that group? The yeshivites wouldnt even eat at their father’s house-- father was orthodox, kept the house kosher, had all sorts of things set up in the house so he didnt have to turn on lights or tear toilet paper on the sabbath, he was a rabbi at a conservative shul in a nearby town- even though he was himself orthodox)- and 2 of his own kids wouldnt eat at his home. Sadly, since his death, the siblings have been in ongoing battles about the estate, the house, the books, etc. I am glad things are working out with the OPs daughter-- don’t let this tear your family apart too. It is no fun.</p>
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<p>JYm626, it’s not a group, per se. It sounds like that’s what your family informally calls any of your relatives who attended a “yeshiva” (orthodox religious day school, starting around 9th grade and moving up into much older, young adult classes as well). One of my brothers-in-law left his Reform upbringing to study up through the yeshiva system and is eligible for s’micha (rabbinic ordination) but works in industry, instead. </p>
<p>Family struggles you describe are troublesome, especially when you sense that the religious debate is in fact a mask for normal family dynamics, parental authority, or sibling rivalry. Jews place themselves along a spectrum of ideas about intensity and practical applications within their households. If strong personalities are involved, the family gatherings can become charged with hair-splitting religious debate, trying to include every family member without stomping on anyone’s newfound systems.</p>
<p>Re: your family member with the rabbinic dad whose kids wouldn’t eat with him: Conservative Judaism differs from Orthodoxy not in terms of visible practice domestically, but in a theological debate about revelation at Sinai and the nature of divine authority, which in turn has implications for how later texts and commentaries are interpreted in practical daily life. It can be astonishing to a Conservative rabbi when his own kids declare themselves “too orthodox” to eat with him any more, usually after hair-splitting debates about which labels they respect on cans of food. Kosher is kosher, but when you get into which group put its seal of approval, I’m so out-of-the-room by then you can’t even find me.</p>
<p>My lament (and my sympathy for the OP) is my personal experience that modernists in either generation can get bullied or intimidated by the following argument: “It doesn’t matter as much to you (the modernist), so you should bend and do it my (more traditional) way, or I won’t attend.” </p>
<p>What I try to do is find out exactly what’s the obstacle, accomodate it or work around it, and never lose sight of the overall goal to keep family together.</p>
<p>The OP’s moving statement of concern for her daughter’s financial independence is better served with modern orthodoxy than Chabad. I have several mainstream orthodox female cousins who are accomplished in their professions, but they make accommodations to the workplace such as using up all their “sick days” to observe each and every festival. As Joe Lieberman joked when seeking the presidency, “I’d be fully available, 24/6.” (BTW, I’m a Reform Jewish woman, just so you know my perspective on all this). </p>
<p>It IS complicated.</p>