Rethinking the Costs of Attending an Elite College (Wall Street Journal)

Parents Forum
21

<p>Someone mentioned potential earnings as being related to prestige of college. I have never thought of my kids’ college selections in those terms, nor do I believe they will make MORE money due to the schools they attended. They may have some good opportunities that came out of it but the amount they earn will not differ from having attended another school. That is not anything to do with why they chose the schools which they did. </p>

<p>However, we are of the train of thought to allow our kids go to any college and find a way to pay for it as our top priority even if it means sacrificing other things. I also see nothing wrong with college loans as few people have $200K per kid set aside or saved up, unless well to do. </p>

<p>Someone asked about NYU “merit scholarships”…One of my kids went to NYU. She was a financial aid applicant. She received a four year scholarship that was substantial and I was told that it was part merit based but the amount was figured taking need into account as well. This same amount of scholarship was guaranteed all four years no matter how the FAFSA was in the subsequent years. I don’t believe a high GPA was required at all to maintain the scholarship (though she had a good GPA!). In fact, in her fourth year, surprisingly three more scholarships appeared on our bill that were smaller in size but I don’t think this is about GPA (though I am sure if she had a low one that would have hurt). By the way, in her field (musical theater), those in the performing arts surely have heard of NYU/Tisch.</p>

22

<p>I agree about the ceiling and the peeling paint. Give me $100, and transportation to Home Depot, and that can be taken care of… Re: education. Have had this discussion before many, many - did I say many? - times. Do what’s right for your family. For my family? Good financial aid at wonderful private college has been a godsend for us. :)</p>

23

<p>

</p>

<p>tokenadult,</p>

<p>I followed your link to the poll results. Interesting, thanks for the link. But frankly, this didn’t look like such a strong showing for NYU. The poll only asked people to name the top two colleges or universities. Not surprisingly, only 1% named NYU. Better than UMass, to be sure, but that’s hardly a ringing vote of confidence. </p>

<p>They also broke the results down by region, and NYU wasn’t in the top 7 in the East—although Penn State was, tied with MIT and Penn with 5% among Easterners. (Interestingly, MIT did better in the West where it got 7%).</p>

<p>I think the only schools to make a really strong showing in this survey are Harvard (24%), Stanford (11%), Yale (11%), and possibly MIT (6%). The 4s (UC Berkeley, Notre Dame, Princeton) and 3s (Michigan, Duke, UCLA) did OK. The 2s (Texas, Texas A&M, Ohio State, UNC Chapel Hill, Penn State, and Penn) include some real surprises that suggest big-time sports prowess may be as important as academic excellence in generating “prestige” with the general public. And once you’re down to the 1s with the likes of Tennessee, Michigan State, Arizona, Iowa, Purdue, Indiana, and LSU, I don’t think a school like NYU can claim a lot of bragging rights from this survey. I mean, seriously, if 1% can believe a Tennessee (#108 in US News) is the best or second-best college or university in the country, it says 1% can believe anything.</p>

<p>Still, some of the results are surprising. I’d have expected schools like Columbia and Cornell (both 1s) to do better. Brown’s 1 doesn’t surprise me so much because it’s not as well known outside the Northeast, and it’s got stiff competition there. But no Dartmouth? No Swarthmore or Amherst? Princeton only a 4? No Caltech, Chicago, Northwestern, WUSTL, Johns Hopkins, Emory, Vanderbilt, CMU? Heck, most of these schools didn’t even make it onto the list in their own regions. So I guess UMass isn’t in such bad company.</p>

<p>It also suggests that, notwithstanding the incessant chatter on CC, the rest of the country just isn’t paying much attention to this stuff. Probably a good thing, and a valuable reality check for those on CC who obsess over it.</p>

24

<p>Need I mention I’m really good with a paintbrush and sewing machine? :)</p>

25

<p>I personally could care less about name recognition around the entire country in all groups of the population. I am not surprised that a majority of of the country may not have heard of Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, Brown, NYU, or Dartmouth! Who cares? However, in the circles of certain careers, these schools are well known. That’s where it may matter to someone who cares about name recognition. I feel pretty sure that in both of my kids’ career fields, that their schools are ones people have heard of. If Joe Schmoe hasn’t heard of it, does it matter?</p>

26

<p>But the part of the country that controls hiring (and not just at the Investment Banks) does know the difference.</p>

27

<p>Kayf – my H (who pulled himself up by his bootstraps) will agree with you 100% on that one. The big names have made all the difference in getting in the door during his career.</p>

28

<p>

</p>

<p>Completely agree. Joe Schmoe just isn’t into this stuff, so who cares if he mixes up Penn with Penn State or thinks that his average state flagship is better than Harvard? </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>What “part of the country” do you mean? Um, aren’t there businesses in, why, every single city in this nation? Why do people think that there is some elite class of “hiring managers” who themselves all had elite educations? Yes, maybe in i-banking and a few other fields. But beyond that? No way. I think some people on CC are clueless about the presence of people who make big, big bucks and run companies (if that’s the definition of success) who went to relatively mediocre schools but have really winning sales ways and an entrepreneurial spirit.</p>

29

<p>Kayf and counting down - the reason I disagree is that I look at my father, who dropped out of hs for goodness sakes, who wound up working for several other guys who had started their own firm, and lo and behold, these guys wound up selling to a much bigger firm for a few hundred million dollars and have more money than one can imagine. And if they have degrees, they are from Modest Directional State U. In the industry he’s in, there are TONS of people like that. They’re happy to pay for their kids to go to elite schools and all, but they didn’t need elite educations to make it big time. And frankly their kids will wind up doing less well than they did. Moxie and guts and entrepreneurship and networking and hard work can get people very, very far in life.</p>

30

<p>

</p>

<p>I swear, the lack of imagination! That was a reference to the segment of the population that hires people, not some mythical geographic region where all of the hiring managers live. For Pete’s sake. And of course many of them went to “normal” colleges. No one’s disputing that. But the fact is that hiring managers for all kinds of companies from all kinds of colleges are more in-tune to the quality of education at various colleges than the general public. It’s their job to know.</p>

<p>That said, I have worked with some very sharp H.R. people, and some imbeciles who wouldn’t know Caltech from Central Georgia Tech. But in general, if you have a degree from Amherst, even if 99% of the public has never heard of it, the people looking at your resume probably will have, and they will know that you are one well-educated homey.</p>

31

<p>My X – yes the same one who left me after a few years of making mega mega bucks (after years and years of just really good bucks, and a few years of not so great bucks ) – went to no-name public U and trust me, he does have the ability to hire lots of people and HE has a preference for kids who went to Elite U. I do not think it is that unusual. But to each his own.</p>

<p>When people ask me how he got where he is, I say a combination of things, including he is smart, fair and hardworking. But also, his dad, a union guy, got him a few critical internships from guys who owed him favors.</p>

32

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes and no. I find that many companies who hire at the college level just come up with a list of X colleges that fit their criteria and just keep recruiting at them because that’s a simple thing to do – not because they’re necessarily more knowledgeable about the quality of schools. IOW, if I’m an employer here in northern Illinois and I decide that my recruiting schools are going to be (say) Northwestern, U of I, Michigan, Indiana and Iowa, that’s not necessarily because I’ve surveyed all colleges nationwide, know a lot about them all, and have determined that those are the Very Bestest Ones Academically. It may be that I already have employees who are from those colleges and are happy to do recruiting at their alma mater (and that is not an unimportant thing – it takes time and effort to put on those events). It may be that the CEO came from one of those places, or the bigwigs in HR. It may be that I know I’ll get a good “draw” from those schools insofar as people in those locations will want to relocate to Chicago versus schools in other parts of the country. It may be that I know my starting salaries aren’t going to be competitive to what is needed to compete in the East Coast.</p>

<p>These decisions are made out of pragmatism much of the time, not Superior Insight into and Knowledge of Academic Prowess. I think it’s quite possible that the HR manager who makes the determination that this year we’ll recruit at these schools may not necessarily “know” Amherst or Haverford or Pomona any more or less than any other working professional.</p>

33

<p>And the HR manager’s job is NOT to find The Very Best Colleges in the Country. It is to run a program that will efficiently fill their positions with good quality candidates. By efficiently, I mean that it can be implemented in a relatively turn-key fashion year after year, and have a high return on investment on the time of the employees who take time away from their regular duties to participate in recruiting (whether it is college visits / events or interviewing back at the employer’s headquarters). Not every HR manager is looking for HYP grads.</p>

34

<p>Actually, where my X works, they do tract how kids from each college do, after a few years on the job. They have found that kids from better schools and/or with better grades do better. What a shock. This is not left to HR manager, but senior execs within firm who approve overall hiring scheme. They do hire for many US and worldwide locations.</p>

35

<p>It has been said before, but I don’t think people in the NE realize the difference in perception of elite colleges, comparing west coast to east. I live in the Pacific Northwest. I am not exaggerating when I say most people I know (and some are in HR) would not be able to name an Ivy League school beyond HYP. Dartmouth, Amherst, Williams, Smith, etc., are all well below the radar. There is a huge difference in the perceived value/rank/prestige of schools when you leave the NE area.</p>

36

<p>Greta, as I just said, I do not think HR necessarily drive hiring. They implement, but may not drive. Want to bet Microsoft, Silicon Valley recognize a bunch of schools you didnt name? And I would include a bunch of schools in the midwest and west (eg Chicago, Rice, Berkeley, WU) that would be inlcuded. But OK, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.</p>

<p>And BTW, my child does not go to an elite school. My read on this is G*d does everything for a reason. The child who can get accepted into an elite school does not need my help. My D does.</p>

37

<p>The national companies may recognize the names, but that still doesn’t meant the perceived value of those schools is the same here as it is in the east. It is different out here (non-California). There are way fewer college options locally unless your kid wants to look at applying to schools in the midwest or on the east coast. Most students don’t look that far away. And it just carries over. People are not that familiar with most of the schools discussed on CC.</p>

38

<p>

</p>

<p>Around here NYU is one of a few non-CA schools that people apply to fairly often. I’ve never heard of anyone considering UMass. It’s true that most can’t tell you whether it’s public or private (heck, same goes for Caltech), but they also tend to be less likely to care.</p>

39

<p>Pizzagirl, my boss went to a small college after two years of community college. What he has to offer isn’t taught in college – it’s innate. He also has more money than DH and I will ever see.</p>

40

<p>tokenadult, thanks so much for that link in post #11. That has really made my evening! Texas A&M and LSU ahead of Columbia. I love it!</p>