Retroactive loss of high school credit for "problem" AP course

Parents Forum
21

<p>TimeCruncher,
I understand that you are annoyed, but I think you are a bit over-reacting. </p>

<p>The kids will be able to fulfill the graduation requirement whether the course is “AP” or not.
If it gets “unweighted”, it will affect the GPAs uniformly, thus not affecting the class rank.
Your D will be taking the test anyway, so you won’t loose any money on it.
I can’t imagine any University, public or private, rescinding an admission because the HS changed the name of the class retroactively. (Obviously it is not the students’ fault, not under their control, and not a change they made.)</p>

22

<p>Time Cruncher,</p>

<p>You say you want to keep a low profile at your daughter’s school? You might want to stop and take a deep breath. I have to agree with other posters who are suggesting you might be overreacting (in a big way) on this one.</p>

23

<p>This College Board AP audit process, newly enacted this past year, appears likely to be of limited validity.</p>

<p>[Nearly</a> All Area AP Teachers Get Passing Grades in Audit - washingtonpost.com](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/24/AR2008032403271.html]Nearly”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/24/AR2008032403271.html)</p>

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24

<p>To SV2: Thank you for your post and the March 2008 news article link. It doesn’t surprise me that some AP teachers have chosen to address the CollegeBoard’s audit policy in this manner. I am surprised that my daughter’s AP U.S. Government teacher didn’t use this tactic (given the teacher’s dislike of paperwork), because the course could have been approved months ago, and the current problem wouldn’t exist. If the CollegeBoard condones this practice, it would make sense for the CollegeBoard to simply provide AP teachers with a selection of pre-approved syllabi from which to choose. It’s interesting to see the difference between the March 2008 article you quoted and the news articles my daughter and I found on the Internet last September, when two of her AP teachers first mentioned the audit process, and my daughter and I wanted to learn more about it. Those earlier news articles included horror stories of veteran AP teachers’ syllabi being repeatedly disapproved, and schools with years of high AP enrollment and high AP exam pass rates risking loss of AP course designation. The March 2008 article states that the audit ended in January 2008, so I wonder if it is too late for AP U.S. Government to retain its AP course designation at my daughter’s school, or if the CollegeBoard has provided a grace period (ending on April 23rd, the date mentioned by huguenot in his Post #9) for audit approval. I will print out some copies of the March 2008 news article you linked; the article might be of interest to several people at my daughter’s school. Thank you again.</p>

25

<p>In my experience, and I’ve had several courses approved, the syllabus approval process is very uneven across the board. I think it depends on the reader you get and what course it is in. I’ve had some syllabuses approved within hours, while others were sent back weeks later with extremely nitpicky requests for corrections. Sometimes those that merely copy an approved syllabus get off easy (though even some of those have been disapproved I’ve heard, if you can believe it!) while longterm, wonderful instructors get theirs disapproved because they didn’t include the exact terms mentioned in the checklist. It’s a strange process and I wonder if it will really accomplish what they say they want.</p>

<p>Anyhoo – I’d be surprised if that weren’t the problem. And believe me, I feel for the teacher and all of us who’ve been mired in paperwork this year. However, it is clearly her responsibility and if that can be brought home to her, perhaps she can spend this weekend getting that syllabus submitted. I can’t believe she’s let it go this long!</p>

26

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<p>It will affect the GPAs and class rank of kids who took this particular class class and it will not affect the GPAs and class rank of kids who did not take this particular class class, so it has a net effect on the class. Not fair.</p>

27

<p>^ I am pretty sure that top students that are competing for the top schools all took that class. Plus, the way OP described the curriculum, they are all seniors, and for seniors the class rank does not matter at this point anyway, unless they are taking a gap year.</p>

28

<p>To huguenot: Thank you for the additional information regarding the audit process. Your comments reflect information provided in the news article quoted by SV2 (in Post #23) to which SV2 provided a link.</p>

<p>I, too, question the validity and worth of the AP audit process. Common sense tells me that if a high percentage of a high school’s and/or an AP teacher’s students pass the CollegeBoard-prepared AP exam(s), then those students have clearly been provided with AP-quality instruction enabling them to master the required material, which eliminates the need for the CollegeBoard to audit that school and/or AP teacher. If the AP audit process were used to review only those high schools and/or AP teachers whose students’ AP exam pass rate is significantly low, then the audit process–used to improve instructional quality and student performance–would be worthwhile.</p>

<p>I was surprised by your revelation that an AP audit is conducted by one reader, rather than by a team of readers. This increases the subjectivity and decreases the reliability and validity of the process.</p>

<p>I feel for my daughter’s AP U.S. Government teacher, too, but only to a point. This year, the teacher at issue has been burdened with both routine and non-routine administrative responsibilities, requiring time-consuming preparation of a great deal of official paperwork. Regardless, preparation and submission of AP audit paperwork has been one of the teacher’s responsibilities. If the teacher fails to submit an AP audit worthy of CollegeBoard approval, then about ninety students will be negatively impacted, requiring those students and their parents to engage in what SoCalGal09 correctly termed “damage control.” </p>

<p>Just out of curiosity–do you know if the AP audit process has ever generated a lawsuit by negatively-impacted college-bound students (or by parents on behalf of their sons/daughters) against a public school district, public high school, or AP teacher for administrative and/or academic negligence? </p>

<p>To MidwestMom2Kids_: Thank you for your post. You understand how unfair it would be for students who have been required to do AP-level work to receive less than full credit for the grades they earned.</p>

<p>There are a few who do not understand.</p>

<p>If the AP course at issue is decertified, and if the course grade is de-weighted, then after the new GPA numbers are crunched, students who took the course could find themselves outranked by others in their graduating class who have taken academically less-rigorous courses but earned higher grades in those less-rigorous courses. (Even my daughter’s “A” in the course might not protect her from a ranking plunge if that hard-earned “A“ is de-weighted.) The ninety students who completed the course at issue are currently the school’s highest-ranking students. That could change for no other reason than an administrative matter beyond their control. And that’s unfair.</p>

<p>As I mentioned in my original post, some of my daughter’s high school administrators and teachers are opposed to the AP Program for a variety of non-academic reasons. My daughter is savvy about people, but even she can’t tell if the teacher at issue belongs to the anti-AP Program faction. If so, then the teacher’s failure to submit AP audit paperwork in an adequate and/or timely manner could be an intentional attempt to have the AP course decertified and the “replacement” course de-weighted for the purpose of furthering the anti-AP agenda. AP course decertification would reflect badly on the school, would be regarded with alarm by those parents who want their children to have a rigorous college-prep education, and could result in the departure of high-achieving college-bound underclassmen whose parents might choose to enroll their children in local private schools, or might choose to move out of the district to communities with schools offering superior college-prep programs. So, if the AP course at issue is decertified, not only will this year’s college-bound seniors be negatively impacted, but next year’s college-bound seniors (who have already pre-selected their senior-year courses, among which the AP course at issue remains “available”) will also be negatively impacted, as will the school itself.</p>

29

<p>Actually, I can’t remember if it was one reader or a couple. I’ll look it up. I do <em>know</em> that the process is remarkably uneven.</p>

<p>I totally agree that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the students are passing, then the Audit can only be seen as a way to control the curricula and teaching (a new national curriculum for the top students ?) If the students are failing, a course audit would be a helpful thing. I frankly resented it :-)</p>

<p>Nonetheless, the teacher has no business (if she did) putting her own opinions over the needs of the students - that is petty and unethical.</p>

<p>I would be pretty upset if it were deweighted as well, but I suspect the school will weight it as an AP even if they have to rename it.</p>

30

<p>The top 90 ranked students in the class took the course.</p>

<p>It’s a one-semester course weighted at, what?, 120%? So the maximum weighted grade decline for any student would be .2 x 4.3 x .5 = .43. A B+ would translate into a change of .33.</p>

<p>Divided by, say, five courses per year (probably too low, but I’m being conservative), that’s .02 (maximum) off the weighted GPA of a student who took the course. A student who got a B+ would lose .017. Maybe less if she averaged six courses a year.</p>

<p>Let me hazard a guess that not so many kids are going to have their class ranks significantly affected by those kinds of changes. Especially not at the top of the class, where everyone will be affected more or less equally. Granted, Student X’s A in Physics C and A- in GovPol will be more valuable than Student Y’s A- in Physics C and A in Gov Pol. But there we’re talking about a swing of .0015 in weighted GPA. Could a place jiggle because of that? Maybe. Are you really going to sue over it? You will be laughed out of court. Is anyone going to have an admission or scholarship rescinded? No no no no no.</p>

31

<p>JHS, I like your analysis. And really, class rank should be a non-issue at this point. Class rankings, other than in broad general terms like top 10% of the senior class, are really meaningless among the top competitive students. A ranking can reflect a student’s intelligence and work ethic but it also reflects the luck of the draw in teacher assignments and class scheduling at many schools. That this AP issue is important to the OP because of class rankings gives a lot of credence to the idea that more schools should abandon the whole concept of class rank, vals, sals, and whatever. Being a valedictorian (and I was one) is really meaningless, especially if the separation between students is dependent on whether or not one senior class grade is weighted or un-weighted. No one should care about class rank at this point in their senior year. (Not to slight all the new or expectant valedictorians out there, but really, most of you were just a little luckier than #2. I know I was.)</p>

32

<p>I doubt that ANYTHING short of failing a class or getting a criminal record would have any effect on the college acceptance outcome for this year’s seniors at this point in time.</p>

33

<p>To huguenot: Thank you for your post.</p>

<p>The AP audit process is riddled with controversy. On one hand, teachers whose instructional methods are effective and result in high student performance are justified in resenting a process by which their instructional methods are scrutinized and criticized by the CollegeBoard. On the other hand, colleges which consider the rigor of applicants’ high school education for admissions and merit scholarship award purposes, and which award incoming freshmen college course credit and/or advanced placement based upon AP exam scores, are justified in expecting a reasonable degree of AP Program uniformity with regard to academic rigor. Colleges need to know that Applicants A and B, who graduated from different high schools in different states, and who both earned the same grade in the same AP course, have received the same quality of instruction. I think the AP exam itself is an appropriate and acceptable indicator of a student’s mastery (or lack thereof) of college-level material. Apparently, the CollegeBoard considers it justifiable to dig deeper–beyond AP exam scores and into AP classrooms. </p>

<p>As you suggested, the AP audit might be the first step in creating a national curriculum for top students; your suggestion seems plausible, disturbing, and a cause for concern.</p>

<p>To JHS: Thank you for crunching those numbers. (Math is not my strong suit.)</p>

<p>First, I assure you that my daughter and I have no intention of rushing off to court, but we would do so if necessary, and we wouldn’t be doing it by ourselves; we would be with eighty-nine other students (and their parents), and we‘d be taken seriously. (This district has been sued before.) Right now, I’m just gathering information and seeing which options are available. It’s inappropriate for me to plan a course of action until this situation is resolved, and I see how my daughter and her classmates are impacted.</p>

<p>Second, given the competitiveness and exceptionally high academic achievement at my daughter’s high school, many of the currently highest-ranking ninety students are within hundredths of a GPA point from one another. Retroactive loss of a full GPA point would result in a significant ranking re-shuffle among these ninety students, and–as I explained in my Post #28–many of these students could become outranked by high-achievers currently ranked below the current top ninety students. It’s that close.</p>

<p>Third, in my state, high school GPA and ranking are key factors for admission to the public university system, and especially to its top-tier schools. Admission is provisional. Competition for admission to these top-tier schools is brutal, and the system is quick to revoke admission for students with college application-high school transcript discrepancies, or whose final transcript reveals a lowered GPA, or a drop in class ranking. Public university-issued merit scholarships can be revoked for the same reasons. In my state, It Happens.</p>

34

<p>Agree w/ MidwestMona and JHS - - it’s unfair, but not a real big problem (even if gpa and rank are factors for some scholarships). </p>

<p>You’re splitting hairs - this is not the sort of “drop” in gpa that would cause a college to w/d offer of admission. And if any adcom questions the .33 dip in grades or the absence of “AP” designation on the transcript, you have a moer than satisfactory explanation.</p>

35

<p>I am posting to let you know that my daughter’s AP U.S. Government course has just been approved by the CollegeBoard. </p>

<p>Since Monday morning (April 14th), I have repeatedly checked the CollegeBoard’s apcourseaudit link mentioned by patsmom (Post #5) and provided by arjgn (Post #8). Early this morning (April 16th), AP U.S. Government finally appeared on the CollegeBoard’s AP Course Ledger of Authorized 2007-2008 AP Courses for my daughter’s school. </p>

<p>The AP “problem” has been satisfactorily resolved, and my daughter and I are tremendously relieved.</p>

<p>I want to thank those of you who responded to my Original Post with helpful comments and useful information. Your help and information have been invaluable and greatly appreciated. This is what CC is all about.</p>

<p>This thread has branched off into a discussion of the AP audit process itself, so if anyone has already posted or is interested in posting about this issue (or about the issue of retroactively decertified/de-weighted high school courses), please do so. I will continue to keep an eye on this thread, and post as appropriate.</p>

<p>P.S. I must correct an unintentionally misleading statement I made in the sixth paragraph of my Post #33, in which I wrote in response to JHS‘s Post #30, “Retroactive loss of a full GPA point would result in a significant ranking re-shuffle….” That statement is misleading, because it implies that if the course at issue were decertified and de-weighted, then each affected student’s overall grade point average would drop a full point (which obviously would not occur). I meant to say, intended to say, and therefore should have said: “Retroactive loss of a full grade point for the course at issue would result in a significant ranking re-shuffle….” As I wrote to JHS, math is not my strong suit, so I sometimes use math-related terminology confusingly, as well. (I’ll doublecheck for such confusing statements before making future posts.) </p>

<p>Thank you, again.</p>

36

<p>Hooray! What great news!</p>

37

<p>To huguenot: Yes, it is great news. My daughter and I are relieved that the problem has been resolved. I am certain that her school’s administrators are relieved, as well. My daughter’s AP U.S. Government teacher must be the most relieved person of all. My daughter will be discreetly approaching her teacher later today (if possible) to get a verbal confirmation that the “problem” has been resolved, and so that she will have the opportunity to extend a personal “Thank you” to her teacher. huguenot, I thank you for your posts, information, and concern. I thank you for all your help.</p>