Retroactive loss of high school credit for "problem" AP course

TimeCruncher · April 14, 2008, 2:48am

I am posting in Parents Forum rather than in High School Life (even though this is a high school-related matter) because I need responses from parents of high school students and high school graduates, as well as from parents (or other adult CC members) who are high school teachers, guidance counselors, administrators, or school board members. I am particularly interested in responses from AP teachers and others who are familiar with the CollegeBoard’s AP Program policies. I welcome responses from high school students/graduates, college students/graduates, and college admissions personnel, as well.

I must conceal the identity of my state to avoid possible identification on this forum. CC members who need to know my state in order to address my concerns may PM me.

My daughter attends public high school in a state which requires all public high school students to satisfactorily complete three years of History/Social Science, including one half-year of American Government and Civics, and one half-year of Economics. Students enrolled in my daughter’s school district must fulfill this state-mandated graduation requirement during their sophomore, junior, and senior years, because History/Social Science courses are unavailable to freshmen. The district offers Government and Economics courses to seniors only. At my daughter’s high school, all Government and Economics courses (except AP U.S. Government) are non-Honors and carry non-weighted grades.

In January 2008, my daughter and about ninety of her fellow high-ranking seniors completed AP U.S. Government, a fall semester course for which they have received their weighted final grade. (Retention of that weighted grade is conditional upon sitting for the AP Exam next month.) These students are now enrolled in a spring semester Economics course taught by their fall semester AP U.S. Government teacher. About ten days ago, the teacher told students that a “problem” recently arose which could result in students retroactively “losing” their AP U.S. Government “credit.” The teacher defined neither “losing” nor “credit” (which could mean AP course designation and/or weighted grade and/or high school course credit), and refused to specify the nature of the “problem,” other than that it involved himself/herself, the school principal, and the CollegeBoard. The teacher assured students, “You didn’t do anything wrong; it’s something I did.”

According to my daughter, her teacher has not mentioned the AP U.S. Government “problem” again, and potentially affected seniors have not been discussing the matter among themselves. However, my daughter and I are concerned about the possible ramifications of this unspecified “problem.” Affected seniors might “lose” an AP-designated course they have already reported on their college applications. They might also “lose” a fall semester weighted grade (used in calculating mid-year GPA and district-final senior class ranking, also already reported to colleges). Worst-case scenario: these seniors might “lose” state-mandated high school course credit, which would prevent them from graduating in June (and require them to take another Government high school course, most likely in summer school), and which might also result in the revocation of their college admissions and/or their merit scholarships.

My daughter has registered for and intends to take the AP U.S. Government Exam, regardless of the nature of the “problem” and regardless of the manner in which it is resolved.

My daughter loathes school-related “turmoil,” so she didn’t tell me about this matter until two nights ago. Now that I know about it, I need to know more. My daughter and I will start gathering information about this matter from her school. This will be difficult, because the AP Program is a source of controversy among the school’s teachers and administrators, some of whom want to maintain and expand AP course offerings, and others who want to weaken and eventually banish the AP Program from the school. It is difficult for students and parents to distinguish between the school’s AP Program allies and enemies. (For example, it is possible that the AP U.S. Government teacher intentionally “did something” to create the “problem.”) The Harper Valley PTA (of which I am not a member) operates the school’s gossip mill–known to be the best source of inside information. I must use outside information.

Please tell me if you or your high school students have ever faced retroactive loss (or threatened retroactive loss) of a course’s AP designation and/or a weighted grade and/or high school course credit. I am interested in knowing how that situation arose, how you responded to it, and how it was resolved.

I welcome all information and suggestions for how my daughter and I can respond to this situation.

Muffy333 · April 14, 2008, 6:48am

In my kids’ hs; a teacher saying “oh, by the way you might lose some required grades and credit and not graduate on time,” would have each and every parent at the principal’s door within five minutes demanding answers. Could you call some other parents and see if they have more specific info?

thumper1 · April 14, 2008, 7:08am

Call the school principal and ask.

anothermom2 · April 14, 2008, 7:12am

You should contact the teacher and the principal for actual specifics. As to the AP test, I believe that students can take the tests regardless of whether they took the course (this is according to the AP rules, not those of a particular school.) The public school might not want to pay for the test if you were not “enrolled” in the course.

patsmom · April 14, 2008, 7:13am

I recently saw a list of certain AP courses at certain high schools that were not “accredited” by the CollegeBoard because they didn’t meet certain standards. I remember checking my own kids’ school and finding that, while the majority of the AP courses were okay, there were 2 or 3 that would not give the student AP credit for whatever reason.

The link was someplace on the collegeboard.com site but I can’t find it now for the life of me. Hopefully another parent will have saved it and can point you to it. I wonder if this is the issue with your daughter’s school?

lefthandofdog · April 14, 2008, 7:45am

Off the top of my head - College Board completed an audit last year, requiring all HS to submit syllabus and curriculum info on courses carrying the AP designation. I think the intent was to ensure uniformity across schools and to stop schools using the “AP” designation without College Board sanction. My best guess is that this could be the problem. It might affect how your high school then weights grades and class rank (if they rank). It should not affect any student registered to take the AP exam, since anyone can take any exam - they do not have to have taken an AP course.

I can see how it is helpful to get a crash course on AP from cc parents, but now you need to ask the question of your h.s. principal.

momtn · April 14, 2008, 8:02am

“The Harper Valley PTA (of which I am not a member) operates the school’s gossip mill–known to be the best source of inside information. I must use outside information.”

At every school my kids have been at EVERY parent is an automatic member of the PTA. But even so, if you want accurate info instead of gossip you need to call the teacher and principal.

arjgn · April 14, 2008, 8:07am

I think I found the link:

<a href=“https://apcourseaudit.epiconline.org/ledger/[/url]”>https://apcourseaudit.epiconline.org/ledger/</a>

I was curious as well because the French class my D is taking is supposed to be an AP course - but they don’t designate it as such even though the teacher tells them it is. Not knowing this, she may have specified on her apps that it was, but I would imagine that the GC would have corrected it?

I typed in the school code and discovered that it isn’t on the list, so I guess it isn’t. She is still taking the AP exam next month though.

huguenot · April 14, 2008, 8:44am

I strongly suspect the teacher has not been able to get her syllabus to pass the Course Audit. The good news is, that unless she has already submitted three times and had it rejected, she has until April 23rd to get it submitted correctly. College Board sent emails to teachers on 4/8 to this effect.

If she has already submitted 3 times and failed the audit, then no, the course can not be called AP on the transcript. However, the students may still take the exam and receive college credit if it is passed. It is up to the school district how much weighting they will give the class grades in that situation.

bluebayou · April 14, 2008, 11:17am

As others have posted, any student can take an AP test, so completion of a course is not necessary (homeschoolers often self-study). The gpa weighting and class ranking is not a CollegeBoard issue, but a local school board issue, who sets policy and certifies course curriculum (at least for public schools in Calif).

As others have suggested, the first contact should be the teacher, by e-mail and phone. The second contact, at least in our school, would be the AP Coordinator, who is also head counselor. Third, would be Principal (who refuses any meetings until the first two steps are taken). Fourth, would be local School Board member.

If your child attends a private school, a beeline to the Headmaster is in order.

sherpa · April 14, 2008, 12:22pm

I like the Harper Valley PTA reference.

Am I officially old now?

JHS · April 14, 2008, 12:40pm

Someone should chime in and say the following:

This has all the signs of a molehill, not a mountain.

It looks like the course could lose its “AP” designation.

Perhaps the school will decide to de-weight the fall grade because of that. I would argue against it if I were an administrator there, but there are two sides to the question. My guess, though, would be that if de-weighting happens it will amount to a big, fat nothing, since in all likelihood all of the students competing for high class rank took the same class, so de-weighting the grade will not affect their standing relative to one another.

However, there is NO reasonable possibility that any of the following will happen: loss of credit for a course required for graduation, failure to graduate from high school, recission of college admission, recission of merit scholarships.

MidwestMom2Kids_1 · April 14, 2008, 1:08pm

The high school could call it an Advanced Curriculum course (or something like that) and weight it just like an AP class or otherwise however they wanted to weight it. The college board can prevent them from labelling it AP on official transcripts but the college board doesn’t care how HS’s weight grades for their classes; that is totally up to the HS administration.

I dont think it is fair to retroactively “unweight” the grades the kids earned.

SoCalGal09 · April 14, 2008, 1:35pm

In our district, schools may only weight classes w/ curriculum approved by UC/CSU systems. It’s possible the class wasn’t approved. If that’s the case I can’t imagine a punitive reaction from colleges if all is explained up front. You do need to find out what’s going on. And she should definitely take the AP test, following through on what she signed up for in good faith.

marite · April 14, 2008, 2:10pm

You do not say whether your daughter is a junior or senior. I will assume she is a junior.

As far as her transcript is concerned, the course may lose its AP designation but your D would still be described as taking the most challenging curriculum. Am I right? You may want to discuss the weighting issue. IMO, it should not be altered if it is significantly different from an Honors class.

She should take the exam this May; the AP score will be far more important than the AP designation, even when colleges do not require it.

SoCalGal09 · April 14, 2008, 2:38pm

^^^
OT says she’s a senior, so it’s really damage control at this point. The school’s hands may be tied on the weighting issue if they didn’t get proper accreditation. Sloppy on the school’s part, IMO.

ejr1 · April 14, 2008, 3:00pm

I took the AP training this past summer, then prepared the syllabus and curriculum into the fall. Class had already started, and I still hadn’t submitted. (Perhaps because I didn’t have a textbook, yet, since this was a new job and I was moving. But, I turned it in in October and received approval. The course was notated as AP, but until I was approved, it “technically” was not. Good luck to everyone on the AP test s- they are just around the corner!

Hedda · April 14, 2008, 4:28pm

As a parent and AP teacher (wink!) I suspect huguenot hit it on the mark. Without proper training, and an approved audit, the College Board will not recognize the class as Advanced Placement. The credits and the A-G should still stand, as long as the school is accredited.

marite · April 14, 2008, 5:42pm

Sorry, I did not read carefully. Since the student is a senior, this is a very minor issue, IMO. As far as colleges are concerned, what counts is the AP score.

TimeCruncher · April 14, 2008, 6:16pm

Thank you to those who have replied so far. I am responding to you in order, so you will see that my understanding of this matter becomes clearer as I continue.

To Muffy333: My family is relatively new to our community, and I prefer to keep a low profile at my daughter’s school. I am not acquainted with any of my daughter’s classmates’ parents, so I hesitate to contact them at this point, but I will do so, if that’s what it takes to try to get a group protest going. This community is an uncomfortable mix of Lived-Here-For-Generations families who look at life through rose-colored smog, and Still-Unpacking-The-Moving-Boxes families (like my own) who are disliked by the established families. (The AP U.S. Government teacher at issue is from a LHFG family, by the way, which will make putting that teacher on the hot seat a real challenge for me.) According to my daughter, most of her classmates “don’t talk to their parents,” so most parents probably have no idea that there is an academic problem brewing, and even if they did know, I doubt they’d care. Muffy333, you and your children are fortunate to live in a community where parents know that a school is a school. Most parents in my community view “school” as an athletic training camp, a performing arts rehearsal hall, or a community service placement center.

To thumper1: I am going to write to the principal, instead. My experience with this school’s administrators is that phone (and face-to-face) conversations are politely dismissed with no subsequent action taken. This is a situation where it’s better for me to “put in in writing.”

To anothermom2: You’re right; students do not have to take an AP class to take an AP Exam. (My daughter has already passed two “self-study” AP exams, and will be taking a third “self-study” AP exam next month.) Students at my daughter’s school are required to pre-pay in full for their AP exams (whether AP class-based or self-study); the school picks up the tab only for the lowest-income students, who are underrepresented in AP classes. The school could lose a lot of money (over $7,000!) if ninety AP U.S. Government students suddenly demand a refund for an AP exam they refuse to take (if the course is downgraded to non-AP/non-weighted grade status). On the other hand, my daughter has registered for and intends to take the AP U.S. Government Exam, regardless of how the AP course “problem” plays out, because she is confident she can pass, and she need$ to bypass as many college courses as possible with transferable AP credit.

To patsmom: Thank you for the heads-up about the CollegeBoard link (which was provided below by arjgn). I suspected that the CollegeBoard’s new auditing procedure, which two of my daughter’s AP teachers (including the AP U.S. Government teacher at issue) mentioned to students last September, might somehow pertain to the “problem.” The AP U.S. Government teacher–who frequently voices his hatred of paperwork–mentioned to students the week before last that correcting the “problem” involved “doing a lot of paperwork.”

To lefthandofdog: My daughter and I have known about the new AP course audit procedure since last September (although we didn’t know about the link mentioned by patsmom and provided by arjgn). Last night, my daughter and I combed through the CollegeBoard’s website for additional information, and I had my daughter read through the CollegeBoard’s AP U.S. Government course syllabus (as well as our state’s American Government and Civics content standards) to see if her teacher had covered all required course material. My daughter confirmed that her teacher (who used a CollegeBoard-recommended, state-adopted, and school district-approved Government textbook as the foundation for lectures, homework, and tests) had covered all required material. The “problem” appears to be that the teacher (who hates doing paperwork) has neglected to document the manner in which s/he covered the material. This will be key to my communication with the school.

To momtn: I fondly recall the days when I was an elementary/secondary public school student–the days when my teachers, my parents, and my friends’ parents were proud members of the esteemed PTA. Unfortunately, each of my daughter’s many schools has offered only membership in a site-based PTSA, used by parents (and “concerned” others) to promote their own children and/or to “uphold community standards.” I could join my daughter’s high school PTSA for a nominal fee, but I am unable to meet the group’s real membership requirements: a loud mouth, a white sheet, an open checkbook, and an unbroken ancestral link to a member of the school’s first graduating class. PTSA? Not my style.

To arjgn: You did find the link, and it was a real eye-opener. I input my daughter’s school information, and AP U.S. Government was missing from the school’s long list of approved AP courses. Obviously, the teacher at issue either has not yet submitted the required syllabus to the CollegeBoard, or has submitted a syllabus which was subsequently disapproved, and must be revised and resubmitted. Based upon the information provided by others who have posted here, I suggest that you contact your daughter’s school about the missing AP French class. Your daughter’s guidance counselor might not know that the AP French syllabus has not yet received CollegeBoard approval, so contact the school ASAP. According to huguenot, there is still some time to get this kind of problem corrected (if possible), but your daughter’s school and her AP French teacher will have to jump on it.

To huguenot: Thank you for your valuable information. April 23rd is a date which has cropped up in graduation-related information recently provided by my daughter’s school. Now I see the connection. It doesn’t appear to be a “three-strikes” issue for my daughter’s AP U.S. Government teacher–at least not yet. On the day the teacher first mentioned the “problem” to students, the teacher also stated that correcting the problem would involve submitting “a lot of paperwork.” My daughter did, in fact, see the teacher busily preparing a lot of paperwork. Now that I know the AP audit approval cut-off date, I know how much time I have to “encourage” the teacher and the school to get this matter resolved to students’ benefit.

To bluebayou: Thank you for the wise advice. I will communicate with the school–and the district, if necessary–in an appropriate step-by-step manner. (Of course, I will also do it in the “beeline” manner you suggested.) I questioned whether this would be considered a Guidance issue or an Instruction issue, which, at my daughter’s school, would involve contacting a different Assistant Principal. Based upon your suggestion, I will contact the Assistant Principal (Guidance), a “by the book” person I respect.

To sherpa: You’re not old; you’re Young At Heart… and so am I. (Thank you.)

To JHS: I see your logic with regard to students’ ranking remaining the same even if the course loses its AP designation, is de-weighted, and all affected students’ GPAs drop uniformly. However, my state’s public higher education system (to which my daughter and most of her classmates have been admitted by one or more colleges and/or universities) is notorious for pulling the admissions plug on students whose applications and final transcripts contain discrepancies. This is particularly true at the top-tier public university level. Moreover, my daughter and many of her classmates have been admitted to and/or waitlisted by admissions-competitive private and out-of-state schools, some offering sizable merit scholarships (including full-ride). For my daughter and her classmates, this is a “mountain” issue, because they could lose a lot as the result of a school administrative “problem” which could have been prevented, and can be corrected–if the paperwork-hating teacher who caused the problem gets in gear.

To MidwestMom2Kids_: Your suggestions for renaming the course are good. I agree with you; it would be unfair to retroactively “unweight” the course grade, because the teacher did present all required material, students completed all required coursework, and (wise) students will be taking the AP Exam.

To SoCalGal09: AP U.S. Government has been taught in this district and at this school for many years. It is approved by my state’s public higher education system, which also awards community college, state college, and university course credit for a passing score on the AP Exam. My daughter will definitely be taking the AP exam, no matter what happens with regard to the course’s current AP designation. If the course loses its AP designation (and its weighted grade), a swift and upfront explanation might lessen–but won’t eliminate–the chance of a punitive reaction from schools to which students have been admitted or are waitlisted. If I were a college admissions counselor, I would wonder, “What’s is going on at that high school that I don’t know about???”

To marite: My daughter is a senior. She will be taking the AP Exam. Absolutely.

To SoCalGal09: Thank you.

To ejr1: Thank you for the information. At the beginning of the school year, my daughter’s AP U.S. Government teacher mentioned having taken recent AP training, as well. The teacher also mentioned successfully presenting the course’s newly-published textbook to the school board for district approval. Finally, the teacher mentioned the new AP audit procedure, so the teacher has clearly been aware of the documentation required. I’ve met this teacher just twice, and both times, my take was that s/he’s highly intelligent and shrewd (definitely nobody’s fool); however, according to my daughter, the teacher is also stubborn, and balks at dealing with unpleasant but necessary administrative matters (which is why I suspect that s/he might have intentionally created this “problem”). Thank you for the AP Exam Time good wishes!

To Hedda: Lack of proper training doesn’t appear to be the issue. As huguenot observed, submission of a syllabus worthy of CollegeBoard audit approval does appear to be the issue. Quote: “As long as the school is accredited…” Hmmm… You amazingly (wink!) happened to bring up a pertinent matter which I will need to start researching ASAP. I owe you one, Hedda. Thank you.

To marite: I agree that many seniors might consider this a minor issue, but not the college-bound seniors at my daughter’s school. They will be outraged as soon as they know what’s really going on, and I guarantee that many of them now know more than they knew last Friday. I printed out a copy of the CollegeBoard’s audit approved AP course list (obtained from the link provided by arjgn) and sent it to school with my daughter to show around to her classmates, some of whom will then go home and tell their parents, who will then contact the school. (All I can say is, the school’s fans better be industrial strength!)

Retroactive loss of high school credit for "problem" AP course

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