<p>“In general, Brown/Dartmouth student bodies are definitely better than Michigan/Berkeley (aside from engineering/business).”</p>
<p>The distinction may have been clearer in the past, but not any longer that clear. It is no longer uncommon for students who are admitted into schools like Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth and Penn to be rejected by Michigan. This has definitely been the case among international applicants the last couple of years. I know of dozens such cases personally.</p>
<p>“However, if you ask 99% of people what they think of Michigan, they’ll say, “It’s a top public school”. And if you ask 99% of people what they think of Wash U, they’ll ask, “What the **** is Wash U”?”</p>
<p>That sounds about right. </p>
<p>“Outside of the top ivies and places like Stanford/MIT, schools like Wash U are virtually unknown to the general public.”</p>
<p>Even among the highly educated, few would claim that WUSTL is better than Michigan.</p>
<p>“It is naive of you in fact to assume that Mary Sue Coleman for instance knows enough about the University of Texas’s commitment to undergraduate education and their focus to properly compare it to Georgetown or UC San Diego or the University of Florida. That’s complete BS, she barely knows half the faculty members at the university that she presides over.”</p>
<p>Like I said, whether or not you agree with presidents is one thing. But like I said, their opinion is very much real. Those academic elites are the people who decide your fate when you apply to Law school or Medical school or MBA programs etc…</p>
<p>“Berkeley and Michigan being ranked above Brown and Dartmouth is absolutely laughable. Johns Hopkins ranking above Duke and Penn is completely bogus. The PA ranking is a total fraud.”</p>
<p>Cal and Michigan are not rated higher than Brown or Dartmouth, nor is JHU rated higher than Duke or Penn. All of those institutions are usually given PA ratings of 4.4-4.7, which makes them peers. What is laughable is that you actually believe that Cal and Michigan should be rated lower. Too bad the rest of the educated world does not share your unique perspective. </p>
<p>“I think flinstore was referrring to the “social elite” which is more important to impress than the “academic elite” for 99% of people who intend to live normal lives. They will always think of Michigan as some ok state school in the Midwest while Wash U will be thought as a top 15 USNWR school.”</p>
<p>It is remarkable how you read Fred’s mind so well. The two of you should get together some time and share notes. I guess it depends on which social elite you are referring to. The 14-20 year old crowd you evidently associate with would definitely agree. They only rely on the USNWR and are likely to think that Chicago, Columbia or Penn are on par with, if not better than, MIT and Stanford. Most adults though tend to dismiss the USNWR ranking for the fraud that it is. But you actually know people who genuinely think of Michigan as just “an ok state school in the Midwest”? LOL! You must hang around some pretty uneducated people. In the meanwhile, Michigan alums remain among the most well represented in all facets of the social elites (among the top 10 in the production of billionaires, Fortune 500 CEOs, Silicon Valley innovators, manufacturing leaders, Wall Street executives, Nobel Laureates and Fields Medalists, professional athletes, entertainers etc…) which makes me wonder, which social elite are you referring to.</p>
<p>Ennisthemenace and flintstone. I wonder who will be the next cartoon character?</p>
<p>Well, tigs17, you got a classic CC food fight going here. This choice is not that tough, because this is a classic “win-win” situation with no bad choices except taking loans – always a bad idea to take heavy loans for undergraduate study.</p>
<p>For what it is worth, my cousin did his MD residency at WUSTL and says that the network he obtained there has been the most valuable of his career. He went to Michigan’s football rival for the MD itself. I suspect that his network is valuable because WUSTL draws from the entire country. Michigan mostly draws from in-state with about a third from out of state. WUSTL has 90% out of state. So, it is one of the few truly national universities.</p>
<p>WUSTL is a great school, as is Olin. As you said in your original post, the rankings vary; this tells you a lot. If Ross is distinctly better than Olin, it is not by a wide margin. You can ignore the stats which show that WUSTL sends a lower number of grads to professional schools. WUSTL is far smaller than UM (14,000 vs. 43,000), so yes, it will be less represented everywhere. WUSTL is an elite university even if nobody has ever heard of it.</p>
<p>So, personally, given the money, I would choose Olin, but nobody can fault you for choosing Ross.</p>
<p>In the academic year 2012-2013, 43% of UM was OOS. </p>
<p>GoBlue81</p>
<p>Decorative, Good to know that you are in higher circles. Can we be friends?</p>
<hr>
<p>Depends. Do you only recognize universities from ESPN coverage? It could be a deal breaker. 
</p>
<p>I know plenty of people who are familiar with WUSTL, and I’m not running in “higher circles” of power. They know the school because it’s one of the most egregious spam mailers in the country. I think you would wallpaper a room in my house with all the unsolicited brochures I got from them. </p>
<p>tigs, based on what you’ve said, I would choose Olin. I can’t comment on its reputation in the business world; from what you’ve posted, though, it seems like you have an intuition that it’s the better fit, and that money saved is nothing to sneeze at.</p>
<p>“Michigan mostly draws from in-state with about a third from out of state.”</p>
<p>Once again a clueless poster spouting nonsense. </p>
<p>" If Ross is distinctly better than Olin, it is not by a wide margin."</p>
<p>It is better. Sorry. </p>
<p>“schools like Wash U are virtually unknown to the general public.”</p>
<p>Newsflash: the general public don’t even grasp how tough it is to get into UM these days because the fans and (in Michigan) the satellites water down the prestige. Why would anyone with an elite education care what the general public thinks? I don’t associate with general public nor do I make decisions based on the Q score of a college. General public doesn’t know Penn, Cornell or Brown are Ivies either. You UM fanatics come across as desperate and sad. Just stop. Peers respect Wash U and nobody will call UM a better undergrad overall.</p>
<p>“I suspect that his network is valuable because WUSTL draws from the entire country. Michigan mostly draws from in-state … WUSTL has 90% out of state. So, it is one of the few truly national universities.”</p>
<p>Bingo. This is invaluable.</p>
<p>I have been following this thread because my daughter has narrowed her choices to UMich and WUSTL. She is planning on majoring in Biomedical Engineering and will take the preparatory classes for med school. She is out of state at UMich and received 20k off. She has less than 5k off at WUSTL. It would be $20k more a year at WUSTL.</p>
<p>My gut concern is the size of UMich. We live in St. Louis so she would like to get away and UMich provides that.</p>
<p>Do posters familiar with the schools think that if she took full advantage of what UMich has to offer in regards to pre med preparation, that her opportunities for med school would be similar as what WUSTL would provide?</p>
<p>Any info is appreciated. She is attending Amaizin’ Blue preview next weekend and is looking forward to that.</p>
<p>Sorry I know this is off topic from what OP had asked</p>
<p>“You UM fanatics come across as desperate and sad. Just stop.”</p>
<p>Here’s an idea. Why don’t you just stop and get out of this forum? </p>
<p>“Peers respect Wash U and nobody will call UM a better undergrad overall.”</p>
<p>But you insist that Michigan is not a peer of WUSTL. </p>
<p>stloumom. It would be a good idea to start a new thread for this discussion. </p>
<p>WUSTL overall undergrad’s peers include Vandy, Northwestern and Johns Hopkins.</p>
<p>UM’s overall undergrad’s peers include UVa, UNC, Illinois and UCLA, i.e., “Public Ivies”</p>
<p>Nobody considers a private school in the top 15 to be a peer of a #28 school with 4x the kids. They cater to completely different audiences. Get a clue.</p>
<p>And with the #28 reference, we see yet another glimpse into this particular ■■■■■’s varied and colorful past. The Illinois (41 on National University list where UM is a lowly 28) reference is new, though. LOL Nice, illogical attempt to obscure. </p>
<p>Seriously. Weird. Such a giant axe to grind, and expressing it in such an odd way.</p>
<p>Probably should get some help for that. But to be fair to the therapist, make sure he/she has no ties to UM. </p>
<p>“WUSTL overall undergrad’s peers include Vandy, Northwestern and Johns Hopkins…”</p>
<p>What no Duke? Oh that’s right, you think Duke is a peer of HYPSM. LOL</p>
<p>@stloumom,</p>
<p>Personally, in your case, I would go with Michigan. It is a great school, and will prepare your daughter well.</p>
<p>The key is here is cost. I cannot see paying a lot of extra money to go either one when the other is considerably cheaper. The rankings are muddled on these two fine universities. USNEWS ranks WUSTL at #14 but UM at #28, but Forbes ranks UM at #30 with WUSTL at #57. What is clear is that both are outstanding schools. Unless one of them does not have the academic discipline which the student prefers, then I recommend going with the lower cost university. Michigan can prepare her for any med school in the country.</p>
<p>(Please take note that I advised the original poster, tigs17, to go with WUSTL because it was considerably cheaper. I have no ax to grind here.)</p>
<p>LIVING BILLIONAIRE ALUMNI (undergraduate only)
Michigan 11
Vanderbilt 2
WUSTL 2</p>
<p>LIVING FORTUNE 500 CEOs ALUMNI (undergraduate only)
Michigan 11
Vanderbilt 0
WUSTL 0</p>
<p>LIVING NOBEL PRIZE/FIELDS MEDAL ALUMNI (undergraduate only)
Michigan 5
Vanderbilt 1
WUSTL 0</p>
<p>TOTAL
Michigan 27
Vanderbilt 3
WUSTL 0</p>
<p>I like the way this “higher circles” concept is shaping up. I can totally see how Michigan is inferior to WUSTL. LOL!</p>
<p>I love all the advice , my son is deciding between 3 as well . Thanks </p>