Rungs

Parents Forum
1

<p>

If even we cc parents, who are trying so hard not to be the lemmings, are still characterizing the non-HYPS as “rungs down” instead of simply “different”, what hope is there? </p>

<p>I am asking myself why HYPS/AWS are still the Holy Grail, or at least the yardstick against which we measure. A HYPS/AWS type myself (Wellesley, UCB, Stanford) from the era when BWRKs did, in fact, get in as a rule rather than as an exception, I can’t explain it any other way than bragging rights. </p>

<p>Maybe that’s too harsh, but what I am trying to say is that the whole HYPS/AWS is a form over substance distinction. And yet, we can’t fully wean ourselves from it. Yes, we deride those who seem obsessed, we talk about fit and yes, we search deeply for other fits for our S,D and those of others, but we do not let go, even us.</p>

<p>Here are reasons I hypothesize as valid for the HYPS/AWS coronation: [ul][<em>]Top notch faculty - but the famous are a very small part of the faculty, undergrads will spend limited time with them, and there are wonderful teaching faculty (and some big names) at many other schools [</em>]small classes - can be had many, many places [li]caliber of students you will be around - this is the most convincing to me, as HYPS/AWS virtually assures a high caliber, but that same high caliber is present so very many other places[/ul]</p>[/li]
<p>When our S/Ds get into a Bucknell, a Kenyon, a Tulane, a stateU Honors College, we celebrate. But we feel the need to justify, I think, even to ourselves, that this is “just as good,” to assure ourselves that “it will be ok.” </p>

<p>Can we/will we let go of the “Gold standard”? Should we let go? Or have I missed something?</p>

2

<p>JmMom, I don’t think everyone on here thinks that only the Ivies and AWS are tops. I know that in my own family, my child never said, “I want to go to an Ivy league school”. She wanted to go to a challenging college that fit her profile. I can’t recall if you are the one with a child at Bucknell but that is a really good school! Just as a point of reference, while my child had a few Ivies on her list of schools, if she ordered her schools in order of PREFERENCE, not selectivity, she ranked Smith and Tufts over Penn and for a long time, Tufts over Princeton. She was not an Ivy or bust girl, lol. I hear what you are saying and surely I have seen many student posters who religate anything but those top schools as “rungs down” and only that top rung will do, and maybe there are parent posters of that ideology, but I think there are just as many who are really striving to find the school that matches what they want and even the very best students out there like and want schools that are not in that so called “upper rung” that you were referring to. I don’t know that EVERYONE is caught up on that “Gold Standard”, is what I am saying.
Susan</p>

3

<p>I guess i’m still suprised, even if we use this rungs formulation, to see people put six schools at a different level from those “beneath” them. But you’re right; it seems they do. When did we get to “top three” from “top twenty-five”, which is still arbitrary but not quite so ridiculous?</p>

4

<p>I’m from Southern California, and it seems we have a different take on what is the
“top rung” so to speak. The yardstick I have noticed here that people use is one of opportunity after graduation. Will this school give my kid the preparation, inspiration and contacts that will serve him well in whatever field he decides to engage?
USC is considered as valuable, or more valuable, than HYP to many, especially in business, architecture, media - many california industries. Cal Tech is tops here for tech industries, along with Berkeley and Stanford. AWS get a puzzled look from many out here. UCLA is appreciated more than most of the Ivy schools.
I think it goes beyond bragging rights to what is really going to give my kid a leg up in the future. It’s because of the reality of our shrinking economy and the lack of opportunity for the average joe in the country today that people get so crazy.</p>

5

<p>I believe you can still make the argument in favor of Ivies re: caliber of student.</p>

6

<p>People are competitive and believe in hierarchies. They want to be associated with those at the top. </p>

<p>It is easier to categorize people than to actually think. That person went to Harvard, he must be smart. That person went to Colorado, he must not be that smart. He is also a slacker. Now, I can hire the Harvard guy, not the Colorado guy. Instant decision, doesn’t take up much time or thought. </p>

<p>I used this example because a couple of years ago, there was a brilliant science student recruited everywhere. He chose to go to Colorado because he wanted the “college experience”.</p>

7

<p>According to the Ivies themselves, they are consistently rejecting entire classes of students of as high a caliber (even the way they measure it, which I think is highly suspect) as those they are accepting. Those students are going somewhere, and it isn’t the Ivies.</p>

8

<p>I think the ivy reputation has a negative side, too. My student, who applied to only one ivy because of a specific program, shunned the others. The students and parents who hold the ivy schools up as the pinnacle of achievement can sometimes seem very snobby and condescending (as was our personal experience), so my student doesn’t want to go to a place with alot of folks like that. To each his own!</p>

9

<p>To me the real issue, and one which was really brought home to me by these boards, is that of “like-minded peers”. I certainly believe in trying for the best education one can obtain, but the right fit is key. My D (soph at Rice) wouldn’t consider an Ivy. S has a number of Ivys on his list. I think S would do well at a variety of schools- large, small, urban or rural. However, he has been around very academically-oriented kids for his entire school experience, and I am afraid that a Big State U (of which there are two on his list) would disappoint him. I remember being shocked when I arrived on campus “back in the day” of the Big State U I selected (sigh unseen). I loved most everything about it, but the lower 75% of the student body was very different from what I had experienced in my college-prep oriented public high school in the east. I adjusted, of course, but I was not as challenged as I should have been.<br>
I think the perpetuation of the “Ivy is Best” viewpoint is hard to change. The nature of our society is to rank everything. Lexus is better than Ford. Vuitton is better than Coach. Is it a 5 Star restaurant? Can I have the corner office? Is my cell phone the smallest, coolest one?</p>

10

<p>Jmmom,
Rest assured that many of us don’t feel the “need” (to justify) which you describe – although I definitely understand & relate to what you’re saying, & “hear where you’re coming from.”
D #2 is every bit as capable & bright as my first-born, but an Ivy is not appropriate for her, nor would be an equally (yes!) academically rigorous college such as Swarthmore, UC Berkeley, etc. While she’s very capable academically, her orientation is more practical & more creative, & her fields of interest are diff. from her sister’s. I will be thrilled & feel that she has been just as “victorious” as her sis, if she finds & gains admission to a college suitable to her <em>style</em> & her interests. I also predict that she will out-earn her sister at least in the near future, if not throughout life.</p>

<p>And three BTW’s:
(1) D #1 seeks in a college experience: the Northeast Region (for a variety of reasons); a very rigorous curriculum; a multitude of intellectual peers [most students on her level of ability]; outstanding preparation to pursue advanced degrees there or at a similarly fine U; a manageable size of institution.<br>
(2) There were plenty of non-Ivies on her list. (In fact, most of her list before Early acceptance were non-Ivies, but all were selective to highly selective.)
(3) I recognize that there is no guarantee that she will be happy at the college she eventually chooses for enrollment. Ultimately, there is no way to predict that.</p>

11

<p>soozievt - no, my S is nowhere yet. Had only one HYPS on his list, and will likely go to a place _rung(s) down depending on who you ask. The “rungs down” quotes were from us parents and just seem “ingrained.” Which brings me to</p>

<p>momofwild - I think you have it. It is something ingrained in our society - to rank and compare with the Joneses. We can’t totally escape it and maybe, wrt college admissions, it’s an acute rather than chronic disease. In this case, those of us lucky enough to have only one kid suffer exposure to it for the shortest time.</p>

12

<p>"Vuitton is better than Coach. "</p>

<p>Remember what Yogi Berra said: “Never buy expensive luggage. After all, you only use it when traveling.”</p>

13

<p>Being the author of the “rungs” quote (which I still like BTW) and also one of the most ardent defenders of those who chose otherwise, I’ll wade in. At least get my toes wet. You know those commercials where the voiceover comes on as they are showing a fine car, watch, whatever? Buy the “____<strong><em>” it’s a good as the “</em></strong>_____”. Well, it’s not just them. Colleges do it ,too. For example -and please people, I am not picking on Olin or your relative who may go there- D received from Olin this week a wonderful brochure that says , in essence, have some guts-chose us over HYPCaltechMIT-you’ll be glad you did and here’s why. That was the lead. Other schools list the “high quality grad programs” at which their kids get accepted, usually leading off with HYPS. In consumer products I’ve always refused to buy something that bills itself as “as good” as the original. I want to purchase the article based on it’s own unique merits and tend to refuse the product pitched as “good as”. Anyone remember the “Granada”, a Ford mimicking a MB? I think we have plenty of help keeping HYPS at the “top”, and some of it comes from the other colleges themselves.</p>

<p>(BTW, It was only yesterday that I learned that some view Dartmouth and Brown as a rung down from anybody. Must be short rungs. LOL.)</p>

14

<p>yes, curmudge - browse around and you can have some fun on the “Rank the Ivies” threads. “Poor little Rhode Island - oops, I mean Cornell/Penn/…”</p>

15

<p>Curmudgeon-
Of course Dartmouth and Brown are a rung lower- they’re part of THE LESSER FIVE! I mean, who would EVER want to go to them when we have HYPSM? Who cares about fit, we need to reach the top of the ladder! ;)</p>

16

<p>I’d love to see a Consumer Reports tackle this, but I don’t know how it could be done. I’ve seen college guide books that rank some colleges as “Best Buy.”</p>

17

<p>My d.'s have their own goals for college, which is as it should be. But as a parent, I have my own goals for college for them as well, and they are the same for both kids, as different as they are. Actually, only three of them: they should each become great writers (they are already very good), world citizens (preferably through large amounts of college-supported and nurtured foreign travel and community service), and make good, lasting friendships. All of these are possible anywhere; but each will be nourished more carefully at some institutions than at others. Compared with what we found elsewhere, for my d., most if not all of the Ivies were a distinct rung down.</p>

<p>May be different for others. Kick the tires.</p>

18

<p>I agree with mini & oldman. For my older D, “caliber of student” was her Bottom Line. We spent much of our research/pondering time, when discussing her college list, where those equally good “rejects” (hmph!) might likely end up, so that she could follow them there in the event of an Ivy rejection. I definitely think that those students are turning the non-Ivy Reaches into Super-reaches, & the matches into reaches. </p>

<p>We definitely need to start a RD-Ivy thread in spring, asking those students where they’re going instead. Certainly some of the Early deferrals have already turned their attention to non-Ivies (including Publics), & are concentrating their energies there. (WUSTL, etc.)</p>

<p>And to your second post, mini, for my D #2, the Ivies would be a rung (or two) down in terms of opportunities in her field(s).</p>

19

<p>Clearly the academic differences between schools that are in the top 25 or so (whether LACs or Univs) are just subjective differences in style, size, tone, personality-- not objective differences in quality. An incredible education can be yours at any of these schools.</p>

<p>In fact, for a given kid, HYPS/AWS or UC, UCB, UW will not offer as good an education as Grinnell, Bucknell, Kenyon, or Macalester. </p>

<p>When I applied to colleges I could not see myself being happy at a place with the intensity of Harvard/Yale/Swat/UChicago and so did not apply to schools like this. It was a subjective decision, but I just did not want that much pressure. For a Harvard type, what I saw as “pressure” would be seen as “excitement,” and it would be the very reason they yearn to go there. This is a subjective, individual decision.</p>

<p>Happiness and engagement should be huge considerations in college selection. Someone who is ‘out of phase’ with the prevailing ‘culture’ of a school will not be happy, and will not be getting the best education he or she could get. That same person, in a supposedly “lesser” enviornment that is an excellent personality “match” will get a much better education. (For example, a student who needs intimacy and small scale to thrive will do better at a #50 LAC than a #10 University.)</p>

<p>When we talk about levels down, I think most of us mean levels down in selectivity & admission “odds,” not quality. The best-known highly academic schools draw the most applicants per spot and thus have the highest selectivity/lowest odds. For example, coed schools draw from a much larger applicant pool, giving women’s colleges “lower” selectivity, yet most would recognize a Wellesley or Smith education is on par with anywhere for a student who “fits” well at Wellesley or Smith.</p>

<p>These places are not one-size-fits-all. If US News & World Report did an <strong>individual</strong> “Top 100” list for YOUR CHILD, it would have little correspondence to the one that everyone is so obsessed with.</p>

20

<br>

<br>

<p>This is a great quote … </p>

<p>I wanted to be thrown in the deep end with the sharks to see how I would do … not to be cut throat competitive but to challenge myself A LOT … for me this was a great choice … it was choice that worked for me; but might be a terrible choice for others.</p>