<p>don’t forget to consider ACT scores which the Ivies will accept instead. It’s indeed possible, that a kid who got a high 1400 on the SAT aced the ACT which converts into a high 1500 score.</p>
<p>Sorry, I don’t have a source for that statistic-probably shouldn’t have posted it. I know I found it from a post someone on CC linked or mentioned.</p>
<p>“I’m not talking about middle class folks here, I’m talking about poor people. Anticipation (coupled with huge loans) just doesn’t cut it when you have a disabled mom with 3 younger kids at home. This is why, for example, Princeton’s plan to do away with the loan component of financial aid hasn’t borne great fruit, but Brown’s plan to do away with expectations for first-year employment as part of a financial aid package has (President Simmons is the daughter of sharecroppers, so she knows.). The first is aimed at middle income families (which is a good thing - I don’t have any problem with that.) But low-income students often use work at school, and during the summers to help to continue to support their families back home, rather than being able to use the funds for tuition. The dollar in the pocket today is worth a lot more than the anticipation of two tomorrow.”</p>
<p>Mini, you are entitled to your opinions but this is not completely accurate.</p>
<p>1) At Brown, “The First-Year Work Policy was designed to allow greater student participation in the numerous extracurricular activities at Brown.” (From Brown’s web site.)</p>
<p>It benefits all students at Brown, for the first year. So of course it could help the student with a disabled mom and three younger siblings at home, but he would have to figure something else out for the other three years. For instance, at Brown, AS ELSEWHERE, outside merit scholarships can be used to defray or eliminate loan and work expectations.</p>
<p>Work study at Brown is typically $2250.</p>
<p>2) There is new financial aid at Brown aimed at lowest-income students.</p>
<p>This is the result of a gift from Sidney Frank, a NY businessman, Brown '42. Its aim is “to encourage the matriculation of the neediest students” by “eliminating the necessity for those students and their families to borrow funds to finance a Brown education” (from a letter of President Ruth J. Simmons to the Brown community) and</p>
<p>“The Fund will provide more than $35000 in scholarship support for most of these students.
While these students will still require a family contribution and work study expectation,
they will have no loans and the remainder of the cost of their tuition, room and board and fees will be met by a combination of eligible federal grants and the Frank Scholarship.”</p>
<p>This begins with next year’s class, for about 32 students. It is expected to help about 128 students in four years.</p>
<p>Brown spokesman Mark Nickel said, “The prospect of going into debt puts a damper on people’s aspirations. (The gift) makes a Brown education available and accessible to a much larger group of students.”</p>
<p>(Thank you Mr. Frank. Quite the generous gift.)</p>
<p>3) At Princeton, comparing the class of 2001 (the last class before the no-loan policy was initiated) to this year’s entering class, the number of students on financial aid has risen 41 percent, the percent of the class on financial aid has increased from 38 to 52 percent, and the number of students from LOW income families has increased 83 percent from 88 to 161.</p>
<p>Those with family incomes from $0-59,999 receive an average grant of $31,000 per year (which is more than tuition). There are 304 such students. </p>
<p>121 students with family incomes of 60,000-79,999 receive grants averaging $28,200,
115 with family incomes of 80,000-99,999 receive average grants of $23,300, and so on, to over 200,000income with an average of $11,000 in grants. </p>
<p>The top private universities and liberal arts colleges have quite generous aid for low income students, but I think there are a lot of other factors in addition to money resulting in low numbers of these students at the top colleges. Most of these factors have to do with the education available to low-income students, even including education ABOUT education. Even if somehow excelling by overcoming their disadvantaged situations, many are not aware of the opportunites available. (This lack of awareness is the case for many middle-income students as well.) And, even if aware of the opportunities, they may want to be close to home to care for their disabled parent and younger siblings, or to go to the more familiar state U.</p>
<p>(Just an aside, here.)</p>
<p>Regarding 3), It is need-based aid, so those in the higher income brackets (such as 200,000) that qualify generally do so because there are other children in college.</p>
<p>Sorry to interrupt.</p>
<p>Also, for the student who has summer obligations of caring for a parent or younger siblings, or for any other student who cannot meet the summer earnings expectations, there is a form on the aid page of the P site to explain the circumstances and have the amount reduced or eliminated.</p>
<p>Most of the top private universities and LACs are striving for diversity of all kinds, including economic diversity. If a student wants to attend, there is probably a financial means to do so. (Which is not to say that there aren’t sometimes other obstacles such as family obligations.) At Brown, the average debt for a 2003 grad was $15000. Not bad for four years at Brown. Other debt amounts are similar at the top schools. Yale’s total average debt is under 20,000. Harvard recently improved its aid as well.</p>
<p>Harvard, for low-income students:</p>
<p>In families with incomes of less than $40,000 there will no longer be an expected Parental contribution.</p>
<p>(So low-income students have some financially accessible options in schools that offer need-based aid such as Brown, Princeton, and Harvard, in addition of course to the many colleges that offer merit aid.)</p>
<p>The key issue for many low income families is not only whether the financial aid will include loans, but whether students will be required to use their earnings during the school year and summer toward their education. If that is the case and if the students are ordinarily expected to contribute to their families’ living expenses, that is a real strain on the students and their families. It may lead the students to forego what seems like a generous financial aid package.</p>
<p>Hi I am going back a few conversations but for lizschup & bluebayou , here are some common data sets, so that it confirms that 1600’s are not an automatic in at the *top rung *</p>
<p>Dartmouth College- Common data set 2004 (class of 2008)</p>
<p><a href=“This Page Has Moved”>This Page Has Moved;
<p>Princeton University</p>
<p><a href=“http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf[/url]”>http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf</a></p>
<p>Cornell university- common data set</p>
<p><a href=“http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf[/url]”>http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf</a></p>
<p>Brown </p>
<p><a href=“Office of Institutional Research | Brown University”>Office of Institutional Research | Brown University;
<p>Harvard
Could not find their common data</p>
<p>Columbia</p>
<p>Could not find their common data
Stanford Common Data</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/home/statistics/#admission[/url]”>http://www.stanford.edu/home/statistics/#admission</a></p>
<p>MIT Common Data</p>
<p><a href=“MIT Institutional Research”>MIT Institutional Research;
<p>Yale</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds_2003-04.pdf[/url]”>http://www.yale.edu/oir/cds_2003-04.pdf</a></p>
<p>That is true, some students do contribute to their families’ living expenses. But if this student is going away–somewhere–the family’s expenses are less. Less food, laundry, etc. It would be interesting to know how much less, I don’t know. Work study is generally under $3000 per year. That is figuring about 10 hrs. per week during the school year. So a student could work a few more hours during the school year, or on breaks. At Princeton, Harvard, or Brown, since he wouldn’t have loans to pay for school, he could take out loans for this work-study expectation amount and still send money to his family. Princeton has provisions for alleviating the summer work expectation when there is need. Perhaps the other schools do as well, I’m not sure. I think it is clear that these schools aim to make it possible for low-income admits to attend. If there are extenuating circumstances requiring more aid, wouldn’t they try to help?</p>
<p>All choices may not be free. A student might indeed have a better offer from another school, such as one that offers merit aid. My child had better and worse financial options, and we weighed them.</p>
<p>Cricket, </p>
<p>I hear and understand the point that you are trying to make. Many of us who have been here for atleast the past year have seen this scenario play out first hand though our friend Candi who is a freshman at Yale with loans, work study (and trying to use some of those work study funds to help her family back home)</p>
<p>For some families it seems like a vicious circle because they know that education is the key to a better life (but it is something that is going to come in the future) but they are still living with the realities of the here and now. Those kids that do “make it” sometimes feel that they can’t full bask in the moment becasuse their sucess has come at a price to their family.</p>
<p>In that example, the being away from home may be the most significant hardship. Some kids do not go away to school for similar reasons. There are situations beyond the control of colleges. </p>
<p>In the options above to Marite’s scenario, figuring the student’s living expenses at $40 per week for 32 weeks per year of school deducted from the $3000 in merit aid, we’re talking a figure of about $1700 per year --and that’s not even including the possibility of outside merit aid.</p>
<p>There are many obstacles for low-income kids in getting a college education. Of course there are. Some are financial, many are not. But USUALLY where there is a will there is a way. Not that the way is always easy.</p>
<p>There are also the social aspects that come with when a low income student is now has a peer group of wealthier friends and their experiences then become even more evident: clothes, where are you going on spring break, summer home, how your dorm is set up (flat screen tvs, state of the art stereos), where you hang out or what do you do when hanging out, week end gets aways etc. The low income student while trying to take in all that the college offers. is really limited to things that are happening off campus. When we visited Williams that was one of the things they stressed in their no hidden cost philosophy. When some thing hapens on campus, movies, plays, concerts, even weekend trips are prices so that they are affordable to everyone.</p>
<p>Cricket:
I am not familiar with the conditions obtaining at each college for financial aid.
I do know, however, that for poor families the world over, having one more mouth to feed entails far less cost than the loss of a productive member of the household as that person is making a financial contribution of helping around the house in a significant way above and beyond the costs involved in feeding, clothing and sheltering him or her. Some of my S’s high school mates report working 20 hours per week (and some even more). That could amount to $7k per year of contribution to the household budget. So the family may not see the departure of a child for college as entailing reduced expenses but as loss of significant income.
Candi’s story illustrates another aspect of life among low income families: the college-bound student is often the person who is best at dealing with the complicated issues facing the families, ranging from the housing authorities, the unemployment bureau, the educational bureaucracy for the younger children, the health care system, etc… In other words, the college-bound student is the interface between the family and the outside world. This is true as well for families whose income may be higher but whose command of the English language is limited.</p>
<p>Sybbie:
You are so right about the hidden costs. Just to join an orchestra or a chorus, a student has to invest in clothes. For example, at Harvard, in certain choirs, the men have to wear tails. Even buying them secondhand at Keezer’s entails an expenditure. Joining an a capella group may also mean having to buy slacks and shirts of a color one does not have and would not otherwise wear.
IF the class or study group decides that it would be nice to have snacks, and students ought to rotate providing the snacks, that’s another expenditure. All of these add up.</p>
<p>Marite, regarding Candi, that is exactly one of the points I was trying to make; there are socio-economic problems and obstacles that have nothing at all to do with the aid offered by schools. There are things all the aid in the world couldn’t fix. And, where financial aid does have an impact, some schools clearly have better aid then others, or there may be better options for any given student depending upon merit possibilities. Just another one of those disadvantages for these kids: awareness of their options. </p>
<p>I like Williams’ ideas, Sybbie.
Of course, a lot of these student expenses would be incurred at any college, and indeed there is a portion of the financial aid that covers student expenses to some degree beyond books. My child’s estimation of expenses is more than is needed, and there are free study breaks, free laundry, lots of free lectures and activites and discount tickets and so on. Maybe some kids would be deterred from going to the school of their choice because others are going on fancy vacations, but I’d bet for most it wouldn’t be a deal breaker. My child couldn’t care less, and didn’t want a TV in the room anyway but goes to the student center to watch election coverage and so on, on the big screen. </p>
<p>We’re not all rich, but we all have access to the same college education. Not that conditions are always ideal or easy, but there are usually choices for good students. And not that we don’t wish we could wave a magic wand over all the kids whose k-12 educations are worse than dismal, and those like Candi who have such hardships. That kids like this get to Yale–how remarkable.</p>