Another caution about the public flagships listed in #21 – the acceptance rate and admissions criteria for instate vs. out of state vary significantly. So, while the overall acceptance rate may be around 50% and middle 50% test scores be make them appear “safe,” acceptance rates may be more like 75% instate and 25% out of state with scores in the top 25% needed to be a match for an OOS applicant. Acceptance rates are further complicated by tight competition for admission to specific programs, such as engineering, CS etc. So a family would not be well served to assume that schools like Ohio State, Minnesota, or Wisconsin are safeties if they are out of state.
Avg act 22. 34/35 is not average excellent. A 30 is well well well above average.
Perhaps avg excellent is around 1400 on sat and 32/33 ? It still will be top 10 percent of all applicants.
The 34/35 and 1500 4.0 crowd can still use these schools we are listing. but their safeties move up a half notch. Where almost every IS flagship is a safety and many private’s listed here and the vast majority of oos Public’s outside of the usnwr top 30 public research unis, anything outside of the top 50 lacs and outside top 75 to 100 research unis will statistical safety.
Financial safety is a completely different animal.
I have been reading “average excellent” in the mindset of @Lindagaf 's DD and her journey as well as so many this year and last. I think of the top student who took rigorous classes and scored in the 98-99% in tests (1450+/33+). These kids are the go-getters of their school and community, many school based/community ECs and some local leadership. They may have a state or regional awards in music, sports, or ECs (robotics, science fairs, business clubs, art, etc). These are the kids that teachers, neighbors, classmates “assume” will get their pick of top 20 schools and will set the world on fire. In their community they are the cream of the crop, all around top student so of course they will get in where ever they apply. These kids NEED great safeties. Their school or community is often a puddle or small pond and they are competing in the ocean of college admissions. Before coming to CC or another reality check, those parents and students with this experience think that they are an outlier but as @Lindagaf so beautiful explained in that ocean they are “average” in the larger “excellent” world.
We crafted our safety list to be affordable for our “average excellent” DD17 and now our DS20 but that affordable point is different for every family. We are big merit hunters inspired by some parents who were also on the hunt in the class of 2017 parents page. List these safeties is so challenging because even though we were hunting merit, we had the $ for room and board and also had $ set aside to pay for 4 years at our flagship. I don’t know if it is possible to list true safeties for all since many are not as fortunate and have no way to pay the over run even after receiving huge merit awards.
I do think the exercise and this post is valuable since it will open up many ideas for parents of these superstars that there are “worthy” schools where there are thousands of other average excellent students doing great things. All families just beginning their search should absolutely start with finding a safety or two that their child loves. No one should visit a reach or dream school until they have the safeties locked in and probably not until after they have earned admission. When buying a house we looked at houses that met our needs, in the area that we needed, in our budget range. WHEN we won the lottery we would then search for the dream house. It made no sense to tour dream houses hoping that we would win the lottery because that would make settling for our perfectly wonderful average house (that exceeds all our needs) seem small, lacking, and disappointing.
This has been a really interesting thread to read, with some factors I hadn’t really been thinking of previously. What is most interesting to me is the number of ways to define ‘average’, ‘excellent’, and ‘safety’. DS20 falls into (some) of the definitions with high stats, moderate ECs, and no amazing hook. Like @bamamom2021, we will be fortunate to be able to cover in state flagship, but are chasing merit at other schools, or the possibility of ROTC for schools that are outside the amount we are willing to cover. I think when we first saw his ACT results, and DS started receiving so many emails from top 50 schools, we set our sights on the tippy top engineering schools. (he is our oldest and we are rookies at this). The value of CC and these boards is that we now understand how unlikely these options are (even if his numbers may fit). So- our lists are expanding to other schools, some I’ve seen on the lists in this thread, where there are ABET accredited programs, beautiful campuses, internship opportunities etc. UW- Madison, Alabama, Purdue and a number of others are on the list to research in addition to NC State. He will still do the application for 1-2 schools that we call Pie in the Sky, but more for fun than anything else. Thanks to the OP for starting the thread.
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@bamamom2021 I would agree with everything except for the part about not visiting any reach schools until you’ve been accepted somewhere. For most, this simply won’t be practical. How can you decide which reach schools you really want to apply to if you’re visiting after the application deadline? Additionally, many will track demonstrated interest, and so while you may be happy with your safety, you’re hurting your chances for admission elsewhere.
Spring semester senior year is busy. It’s definitely not the time to be touring all of your schools.
@albertsax which Ivy’s and other top 20 schools track interest? There are other ways to demonstrate interest than to visit, such as connecting with a recruiter. (edited to add: You can check the CDS to find how school view demonstrated interest)
IMO The value of visiting a school that has acceptance rates in the teens or single digits does not typically outweigh the risk of feeling not good enough when you don’t get in. I am a HUGE proponent of visiting schools to figure out fit if finances allow fit to be a factor. We learned so much through our visits and at this point between 2 children have vigorously visited 2 dozen schools (sat in on classes, honors colleges, etc…). We didn’t need to visit the thousands of safety schools that fit my children because we used information widely available to narrow down to schools that matched the size, location, program strength, soft factors (ECs, spirit, sports) that they were looking for in a school. Visit those safeties. Visit the matches. Cast a wide net.
The reaches are best to be left for the April of senior year to visit. There are no unhooked students getting into more than an handful of those top 20s as the very best scenario. The thought that spring semester is too busy to be touring all of your schools misses the point that 90-95% of unhooked applicants will not gain admittance so have no value in the visit. It is not just the waste of time/$ but also the lingering what ifs that remain and the shine that is removed from the excellent schools that do what your child and will give them everything they need and more. The thinking that one must tour to determine if Harvard is a better fit than Brown is driven by the thinking that my child is different and better so has a better odds that the other 43,000+ applicants to Harvard (41,000 of which were denied but were also “average excellent”). Websites are full of useful information about programs, culture, location, and virtual campus tours. The student who will thrive at Dartmouth is very different than the student who will thrive at Penn so no need to visit both. Recruited athletes, hooked applicants, children of celebs - they have the luxury of touring the dreams early. I would caution all parents heading into this to wait on the dream visits until acceptances are in hand. YMMV
Very wise advice, @bamamom2021. An amazing number of parents here tour Duke or similar schools in the sophomore year, only leading to much disappointment later when the kid’s realize there is no point in even applying with their stats or they do apply and are rejected. Fifty thousand kids score above 750 on an SAT section. Work from the bottom up-there are many great schools out there.
@RayManta thank you for your list! It will be really helpful to our junior who currently is in @privatebanker s average excellent category but striving to reach the test scores of @Lindagaf s average excellent child. Either way there are some schools we had not considered and we are seeking merit options so it is important to get some likelies out there early and generate some potential choices.
Marist College in NY. Beautiful campus, great actually, fantastic study abroad programs, and students that appear genuinely happy to be there.
@RayManta Mt Holyoke’s new acceptance rate: 36%.
@bamamom2021 I know Northwestern does. I haven’t checked the other schools.
Maybe the thread should be called “Schools with a BLANK% acceptance rate or higher that average-to-excellent students can love.”
As per the OP’s request, here were our family’s favorite ‘safeties.’ I say this with the greatest respect for these colleges, which I recognize are “reach” and “dream” colleges for many students:
State University of New York at Binghamton: Some of the smartest students in New York State attend this university, a residential college where students live on campus and experience a full range of student activities. It is a safer option for academic superstars just because it tends to admit most of the highest stats kids who apply, without the paranoia of “yield protection” that many private colleges seem to have.
Clark University: This fine private university is small and thus provides many of the advantages of a small college, and through its LEEP structure deliberately provides curricular connections to action in the ‘real world.’ It also offers generous merit aid to top students. And its psychology and geography departments are world-renowned.
Muhlenberg was not on my son’s list, but it is a college I always think of as a great option for kids who prefer small liberal arts colleges.
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Some other notes in response to comments on this thread:
I do not agree that students should not tour schools with low admissions percentages until they are accepted, although I completely agree that “safer” options also should be included early in the touring process so that the student can see that (s)he can find a good “fit” and be happy at a slightly less selective college.
If time and finances allow (not every family is able to travel to tour), it is good to explore a range of colleges prior to applying. There are three reasons for this:
- The process of touring in and of itself helps a student in two ways. First, it helps you clarify what you want from your college experience. Second, it helps you begin adjusting to the whole idea of leaving home and going to college, as you begin to picture yourself on a college campus.
- Early Decision is one of the most effective strategies to increase your admissions odds, so touring ‘realistic reach’ colleges early in the process helps you pick your ED school.
- In addition, if a college offers on-campus interviews that are considered during admissions decisions, it is good to interview. You will be a person, not a file, to the admissions office, and it may make all the difference in the world with a college that considers “demonstrated interest.”
Compared to many other states more top End Universities easily available to top end excellent students in Utah. U of Utah(merit aid significant but is gradually being reduced)ACT 26, 81 % acceptance, Utah State(tremendous stat based merit aid) ACT 24, 97 % acceptance, Westminster ( Great merit aid but high starting cost)ACT 25, 96 % acceptance and BYU (48% acceptance is lowest of group but many huge scholarships for National Merit Finalists)ACT 28 are all schools in Utah were average excellent students apply and routinely attend. Unusual cultures, but can definitely find large “normal” vibe at all schools except BYU. All schools close to best skiing on Planet but isolated from any significant city culture (Salt Lake City tries). Any lover of the outdoors could love one of these options.
Isn’t that part of the point of visiting? We visited 2 reaches (one highish, one low) on our tour. D19 decided against the high reach because of the way they framed their requirements, and against the low reach because she hated the campus. We didn’t consider either of those a wasted visit seeing as we considered the point of the tours as being to see whether or not a college was a fit. The two hour tour of a campus we were in the town for anyway was less time wasted than crafting an application would have been.
CU-Boulder. Awesome location and education. Expensive for OOS. Very liberal, might not like if you’re very conservative.
Auburn. Really nice people. Solid education. OOS scholarships for decent grades/scores (not ridiculously high grades/scores required). Not too far from Atlanta. Pretty conservative, might not like as much if you’re very liberal.
With thousands of US colleges, this list could grow endlessly.
Just saying: D1 saw a number of schools with DH, as he’d need to use their libraries. But her first official tour was Harvard. Hated the lemmings rush. Then BU. Hated the size.
That certainly did simplify things for us. On to smaller, cozier LACs.
@bamamom2021 - completely agree!
@TheGreyKing - You’re right about Binghamton. I have tried and tried to get my son to really take a look there. Coming from a suburban PA public school, he’s used to a level of diversity and academic strength in his fellow students that we just aren’t finding at the smaller privates. He is accepted to honors at Bing with merit, but he just is not interested in really considering it. You can lead a horse to water … oh well, at some point I have to trust that he will end up where he needs to be. And, if not, there is always transfer.
So, yes, I would definitely echo the advice previously stated here - don’t go crazy with the reach school/ T20 tours early in the process. It’s good to get a sense of what you like, but you could be wasting a lot of time better used getting to know the more likely admits on the list and find yourselves scrambling in April trying to fit in visits when there are so many other things going on."
And yes - schools that still do interviews are a godsend. Take advantage of it.
Harvard and BU are definitely not recommendations for this list. lol.
No. But the convo turned to visits. H, as a reach, was not a mistake to visit early on, in our case. (DH probably used the library that day, anyway.)
I was much more concerned with her seeing UVa, while I was on a trip to that area. I worried it would throw off her perception of all other schools, based on its attractiveness and my affection for it.
This ‘what to visit’ will be personal, based on strengths and fit, not dreams. If you’re rational and control their fantasies, it can be fine to go see a reach. Just dont let their heads spin.