<p>Do you think we should in general ban things that cut people off from the broader community, like the burqa does? How about homeschooling…?</p>
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<p>And many ultra-Orthodox women would not communicate with a man not-her-husband except in cases of necessity. They certainly wouldn’t be open to small talk. And? So? They’re still allowed to live like that, if that’s how they like it. You couldn’t get me to live like that for a million bucks, but so what?</p>
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<p>So it is necessary for our dress to communicate openness-to-communication? What if I wear a t-shirt that says “Don’t talk to me”? Same difference, no? I am not obligated to want to talk to anyone I don’t want to, and neither are Muslim women wearing the hijab.</p>
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<p>Exactly. Part of freedom is the freedom to be left alone.</p>
<p>I don’t see how the burqa is much different from going off and living in a walled compound in a remote area. Is that banned in France?</p>
<p>RebelCats and NuclearPakistan thank you for your thoughtful and inclusive posts.</p>
<p>I think that the question that so many women have about the burka is less one of “rights” and “government intrusion” and more about the true willingness of the Muslim women to adopt this fashion. Is it imposed on her? Does she have the ability to actively say “No” and not suffer for this? That was where I began my questioning. I just have a hard time understanding how any educated woman would willingly submit to this practice. </p>
<p>Maybe I’ve just read too many articles about Ayaan Hirsa Ali and her struggles against the Islamists who threaten her life, but am I just totally uninformed on this topic. I mean, is it possible that little Muslim girls just can’t wait to grow up so that they get to wear the burka too! Or is it possible that the wearing of the burka completely removes the woman from society, subjugates her to the dictates of men, and strips her of any rights to free and open expression and the opportunity to interact with virtually anyone of the opposite sex outside of her immediate family? </p>
<p>Sounds more like slavery to me….Can someone explain this to me???</p>
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These two things are not inconsistent. That’s what makes it hard for somebody who doesn’t share a religion to understand how educated people can accept some of the odd things our faiths lead us to do.</p>
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<p>I have a hard time understanding how any educated woman would willingly choose to forego birth control and have 18 children like the Duggars, or live by the rules of Jewish family purity which require menstrual secretions to be checked and verified before intercourse, or any number of different things. However, my lack of understanding why women would live that way is really irrelevant. People are free to live their lives in whatever religion they choose.</p>
<p>You misunderstand me. I am questioning if these are truly free choices. If they are, then I’m with the crowd that says “leave 'em alone.” But if the behaviour is coerced or the result of active attempts to keep women uneducated so that they can’t make a choice and that all of the power rests in the hands of the men, then I’ve got a problem with that.</p>
<p>This is another one of those extremely difficult line-drawing problems–what, exactly, is a “truly free choice?”</p>
<p>It isn’t a matter of free choice but a decision by a society whether to ban a form of dress they consider to be anti-social in their value system. Think of it the other way: essentially every Muslim nation has modesty codes that apply to everyone, so no Western woman could wear a mini-skirt in Riyadh. That’s their social construct.</p>
<p>We have had the same issue in the US; some Muslim women wanted to have their driver’s licenses in FL show only the completely covered face with only the eye hole. That’s not a recognizable picture of human being so their position was fought over and rejected.</p>
<p>The French are considering how far the qualities of French citizenship, which have been important since the Revolution brought back the concept of “citizen.” They have already banned a number of religious manifestations in schools and now they’re considering whether the burka - not a veil but a full body covering - is contrary to French values. That’s their right. </p>
<p>I also admit to a bias; Muslim nations are the most intolerant on earth and fall on a range of absolute ban on every single other religion to minimal tolerance, with only a few falling anywhere near the Western standard. Look at how the Copts are being treated in Egypt now as the state uses the fear caused by swine flu to destroy their livelihoods. And yet Muslims come to the West and demand that their ways be tolerated. No. Come to the West and fit in.</p>
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Well, sure, it’s their right, but it’s our right to criticize it as intolerant. I was going to say that it’s un-American, but I’m not sure the French would take that as a criticism.
I don’t like the burqa–and I agree with such things as the drivers’ license decision–but freedom of religion is a big deal.</p>
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<p>Pretty sure that all the Duggar girls are being taught that it is their job to have baby after baby after baby, too, and they’ll grow up and do just that. Is that being “coerced”? Or just how their parents chose to raise them? Where is the line?</p>
<p>Of the Muslim women I know they are educated or getting a college education. They are also married and have children. You see the Muslim when at stores and the like together smiling, laughing, having fun, talking to people. I don’t know if that’s the case in France but it is the way it is where I live. </p>
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Remember that if you ever go to another country and they tell you that you cannot your native country’s fashions.</p>
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<p>That might be within their right…but I think the difference here is that it’s not just a fashion, there’s the religious component.</p>
<p>Well, in many Muslim countries there certainly are restrictions on western dress and ways for women. Probably some for men too like no booze or talking to Muslim women without escorts.</p>
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<p>I have too much respect and admiration for the Muslim religion not to cringe when extremists who want to subjugate women do so by hiding behind religious principles.</p>
<p>Jehovah, God, Elohim, Yaweh, Lord, Allah….</p>
<p>“Though we may know Him by a thousand names, He is one and the same to us all.” (Ghandi)</p>
<p>No way does He, no matter what we call Him, want some of us to be treated as LESS THAN (especially in His name!).</p>
<p>It is common sense that burkas are psychologically, emotionally, and physically abusive to women. This is not about respecting the right to practice one’s religion. This is about putting an end to gender discrimination.</p>
<p>^^
Actually, RebelCats, in the Middle East that is exactly what they tell you. If you are a woman working in predominately Muslim countries your company or organization will debrief you on exactly what clothing you must wear. In some Muslim countries, failure to cover your head is an invitation to be molested or groped in public areas. You can be kidnapped or arrested and have your head shaved if your head is uncovered during Ramadan or Ashura.</p>
<p>But in terms of Muslim women in burqas, etc. in the West, a surprising number of them actively choose this, even if husbands and other family members are liberal. The psychology is interesting.</p>
<p>Consider the case of this UK teacher:
[The</a> big cover-up | From the Observer | The Observer](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2005/nov/20/features.review17]The”>The big cover-up | Culture | The Guardian)</p>
<p>Interesting quotes:
The niqab is the mask that covers everything but the eyes, that Chowdhury chose to wear (as a teacher of communications, go figure). She felt that her right to wear it superseded her students’ right to be fully understood by her.</p>
<p>In cases in which women CHOOSE to wear the niqab or burqa, in other words when it is not ordered by anyone else, then it is my personal opinion that it is nothing more than a radical fashion statement, done NOT to cause a woman to disappear, but to call attention to herself. Niqab is such a radical thing to wear over your face, that I think it has more in common with extreme facial piercings, facial tattoos or a purple mohawk than anything having to do with Islam.</p>
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Totally agree with this.</p>
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If I was traveling to a Muslim country and was told I had to wear a burqa, I would wear it, because that’s how they do things in that country. And since I couldn’t handle living in a burqa, I simply do not move myself to a country that has burqas as a lifestyle requirement. I certainly wouldn’t move to another country expecting my life to stay exactly as it was back home. That’s just common sense.</p>
<p>On the other hand, may not be a bad option to have if you want to run out for a quick trip to the 7-11 during a particularly bad hair day.</p>