<p>At our kids private HS, one kid took a gap year, one kid went to CC & the other 200 all went to 4-year Us. That is the norm at his HS. Obviously, it is NOT the same everywhere. At the public HS where I graduated in the 70s, 75% of my graduating class was going on to in-state flagship or other 4-year U; now that same school has a significantly lower % heading to 4 year Us.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, no it is not the same everywhere. At our HS nearly everyone applies to a 2 or 4 year college (2 year is not discussed if the student or parent does not bring up this subject to the GC). Other schools in our area might have a population where only 30% of students go to college. Others work after hs graduation or go on to a vocational school. So we know that for some families college is extremely important and for others it is not as important for a many reasons. What has all of this got to do with the topic though?</p>
<p>Somewhere along the line I thought folks were saying cheating, presumably of this kind, happened everywhere. I was thinking it would only be where there was a market for it, and expectations consistent with it. Is that off topic?</p>
<p>I guess I am puzzled and annoyed by the reliance on legal means to punish these cheaters.</p>
<p>Basically, I would think that MORAL CHARACTER would be a KEY issue for College Admissions in the profiles of applicants. I realize that here are sorts of legal technicalities to protect juveniles and innocently accused. But in cases where there is proof and admission, really!</p>
<p>Here the norm is probably community college, too, with hopes of transfer after two years. It is true that a few students go away to Ivies and etc., but since they almost never return to the community to work or raise a family, they might as well have disappeared to Zimbabwe, for all the difference it makes. They are entirely irrelevant. Every year, there is a student or two who turns down HYP for BYU or Calvin College or such. But it isn’t really discussed, except that a BYU degree is a really valuable commodity in our state. Our state universities are pretty good (though in serious decline because of budget woes), we’ve got one (and maybe two) for neo-hippies, a couple for engineers, a couple for future school teachers. A good LAC (the “Williams” of the West), and a couple of other privates that don’t make much of an impression, except for the basketball school.</p>
<p>Both my kids went East, and the assumption for them is that they will never return (except for visits) as well. If you were born out here, or lived out here for several generations, it would be very hard to understand what all the fuss is about.</p>
<p>So I doubt there is too much cheating of the North Shore variety - there wouldn’t be much of market, and nowhere near the money. There’s very little market for SAT classes or tutoring either.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap --yes this definitely does happen in other places. Again ETS/CB rep said in the 60 minutes interview just in past year CB/ETS was “aware” of 150 instances of such cheating. ETS keeps stats on this. It is not a surprise to them. The appalling thing was the ETS/CB security rep seemed to imply that some cheating was “just the costs of doing business” and showed no interest in tightening identity security at test sites. There have been plenty of excellent suggestions on how to tighten security just in this thread. Plus lets face it, schools could simply administer the SAT during a school day as they do with the PSAT --I hope no outsiders would be able to fake their way in under those circumstances.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, no it is not off topic. I just had trouble understanding what 2 year college vs. 4 year vs. no college in the immediate future had to do with the topic.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If you only have 10 -20 out of 200 that qualify for the SAT based on the PSAT it makes no sense for the school to proctor the test. Remember it is primarily the NE where so much emphasis is put on the SAT. The only way that would work is for the particular state to “adopt” the SAT to meet some regulation, as has happened with the ACT. Then all kids take the test and they all take in their school during a specific day.</p>
<p>I think I agree with Shrinkrap that this type of cheating would occur where there is a market for it. Not all kids in all schools are engaged in the type of angst that would produce a desire to cheat.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>With over a million and a half seniors taking the test every year, he probably figures that only ~150 cases of confirmed fraud means that current security measures are doing a pretty good job. The wild card is, of course, the undetected cases of fraud. By definition, no one knows how many there are.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Unfortunately, in the DC/MD area, we have had proven instances of ADULTS/ TEACHERS helping students on standardized tests to improve their standing:</p>
<p>[Outside</a> firm will check for cheating on District’s standardized test - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/outside-firm-will-check-for-cheating-on-districts-standardized-test/2011/12/24/gIQA3bKAGP_story.html]Outside”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/outside-firm-will-check-for-cheating-on-districts-standardized-test/2011/12/24/gIQA3bKAGP_story.html)</p>
<p>Happened in Baltimore too…</p>
<p>I don’t doubt there is not a state without cheating, but my fantasy is, that if you did a map, it would be clustered around SOME neighborhoods and schools, and NOT around schools with low (lets say 60 pr 70 percent) graduation rates.</p>
<p>hummm, not quite following the logic shrinkrap (it’s me, not you, I promise). You believe the cheating is more prevelant around schools where there is more pressure to go on to a prestigous college? Is that what you are thinking?</p>
<p>Yes, or even just more of the expectation that you will go to a college that requires a certain SAT score, or requires SAT scores for entrance. Again, my experience is anecdotal, but I don’t think it’s bizarre; around here, a lot of kids don’t even TAKE the SAT. It’s not needed for most CSU’s, and not needed for CCC’s. </p>
<p>And again, I don’t mean ANY cheating, I mean this particular escapade. I can totally see a market for someone taking kids California exit exams for them. On the other hand, I can totally see an SAT market for it in a town 20 miles away, where there is a totally different set of “norms”.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Yeah, but those instances of adult cheating have, to the best of my knowledge, involved standardized achievement tests where compliance to federal & state standards, school funding, and/or their own jobs were on the line. </p>
<p>Have there been any cases where adult educators participated in cheating on the SAT or ACT - where it’s the students’ butts on the line more than the teachers’ and principals’?</p>
<p>Well, Shrinkwrap, even of that is true, and it does make sense, that really does not whitewash (pun intended) this sorry state of affairs. Pockets of honesty will not save the system or restore the integrity of the scores.
The individuals, the systems, the colleges, the parents, the culture of getting ahead any way you can (which justifies immoral behavior based on absurd amount of competition)…
Overall, this may be a sign that the testing system, in its intended use by colleges, is broken or close to it, especially when you take into account the amount of cheating overseas (facilitated by re-use of tests as per Xiggi, different moral attitude about honest effort towards getting high scores, higher emphasis on scores and stats than character and holisitc admissions, lax proctoring, time differences in test offerings…)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>not to my knowledge…but I am not sure that adults cheating for kids to improve their own status/well being is a great example for the students. It is just a cultural/moral thing that is lacking, unfortunately. That is what I was trying to point out.</p>
<p>Too many different peoples’ butts are on the line for anyone to take responsibility.</p>
<p>Yes, Great Neck families are angry at the association. What can they do? Great Neck teachers and administrators have been refreshingly cooperative, but only up to a point. The legal system is hand-cuffed by limits like statutes of limitations, juvenile enforcement. CB is limited by privacy laws. The kids complain about too much competition and stress. The internationals emphasize tests scores way over character. CB is miserly about spending money. The proctors at schools have conflicts of interest in reporting students at their own schools, and also in wanting their students to do as well as possible. Managing a high tech security ID system is expensive- whose responsibility is it to pay for that???.. on and on and on
Blah blah blah.
The COLLEGES really are hypocrites if they ignore this stuff, IMO.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Oh, I agree. I think adults cheating sends a terrible message and is probably used by some of the SAT cheater to justify their behavior. I was just wondering whether there was any evidence that teachers were in on any SAT cheating rings.</p>
<p>Parents may very well be funding some of the imposter cheating.
Parents are putting pressure on kids. Parents are not guiding kids to find appropriate means to do their best, and seek appropriate colleges for that best. Parents make a big difference in the moral compass of their children, and also their work ethic, and also the stress level.
Parent have a complex dance in this highly competitive college process, but that does not justify looking the other way from dishonesty, or promoting a win at any cost attitude…Parenting is a big responsibility, no question. Parents are adults.</p>
<p>^^100% agree. But I also think that society needs some rules and consequences when parenting is lacking or misaligned with societal expectations. Or students choose not to follow their parents guidelines. That is when ETS, the DA, or someone has to have teeth- not just lip smacking.</p>