SAT Subject Tests - Necessity and timing

Parents Forum
1

I’m considering whether either of our kids (currently in 9th and 10th grades) should take one or more SAT subject tests this year. It’s at least possible that the end of this academic year may constitute a high point for their readiness to take certain tests.

More background:
We live in the Midwest. Oldest two kids currently in 9th and 10th grades. Not sure how selective they’ll be targeting, or how far from home. If I had to guess, 10th grader will target reach schools between 10 and 20 on USNWR, all the way down to safeties in the 100s, skewing towards the central and southern part of the US, but perhaps including east coast schools. 9th grader may aim a little higher, and will probably have a STEM tilt (MIT and CalTech are possible targets).

Our school gives the ACT (not sure if it’s with writing or not) to all Juniors. Given that fact, and that we’re in the Midwest, we’ll probably lean more towards the ACT in general, though we’ll at least look at taking the SAT. 10th grader is signed up for the PSAT - I expect both kids will have a shot at being National Merit Semifinalists, and if they do well enough on the 11th grade PSAT, that will likely lead towards at least one round of SAT testing.

OK, so the SAT subject tests. In looking around a little, the information on these is somewhat nebulous. Required? Recommended? Recommended unless you submit the ACT with writing? Hard to say.

I don’t want our kids to do excess testing if there’s no real need or benefit, but maybe there is.

Our 9th grader is quite accelerated in Math - is taking Calc BC this year, plans to take the AP test. From 10th grade forward, there’s a fair chance he won’t take any more conventional math in the Calc sequence, at least until college. He’ll probably take AP Stats in 10th, then perhaps overload on science for 11th and 12th grades.

Our 10th grader is in AP World History right now, which is one possible SAT Subject Test. She’s in Pre-Calc, but may not go on to take Calc in 10th grade (she’s somewhat resistant at the moment - we’ll see how it goes over the next few months. So potentially she could take the SAT subject tests in Math and/or World History.

From conversations with folks from the school, I get the sense that SAT Subject Tests are basically off the radar at our suburban public high school (strong, but not upper echelon). The expectation is that most college-bound kids will take ACT and apply to the state flagship or something similar. So there will likely be little to nothing in any of their classes oriented towards the SAT Subject Tests (then again, perhaps this is the norm even in hyper-focused elite east coast schools?).

So, pros of taking the SAT Subject Tests:

  1. They MAY want/need them
  2. They’ll be at/near a high point of readiness in a couple of areas
  3. Their testing regime this spring will otherwise be relatively light. Future springs may hold more AP tests, more focus on the ACT (and perhaps SAT reasoning), etc)

Cons:

  1. They may not want/need them
  2. As 9th/10th graders, they may lack maturity/focus for these tests, compared to waiting a year or two to take them

Thoughts?

(Mods - I realize there’s a specific testing forum. But most of the posts there seem more oriented towards preparation, rather than somewhat higher level issues like this. That said, if you feel this post belongs over there, feel free to move it.)

2

I would have the 9th grader take the Math2 subject test at the end of the year. He or she should prep for it as there may be material on it that he/she hasn’t seen in awhile.

I would not have the 10th grader take a Math subject test - doesn’t seem to be her strength? However, she should be taking 4 years of math so not sure what she’s going to do if she doesn’t take Calc next year. If she’s doing well in World History, then I’d consider having her take that one.

I have one child who is a freshman in college this year, and a current high school sophomore. The older child took SAT Subject tests in her areas of strength: foreign language (non-native speaker) and English Lit. My younger child is taking AP Chem this year and, assuming she does well in class and feels prepared, will likely take the SAT Chem test at the end of the year.

At this point, 2 subject tests should be enough unless your child might apply to Georgetown or JHU, in which case I believe 3 is the preferred number.

3

It’s not that it’s hard to say; it’s that every college is different. But if even one college requires them, you’re stuck.

Certainly for the 9th grader who might be targeting MIT/Caltech, he should take the SAT subject tests. I would agree that he should take Math 2 this year, and either physics or chem in May or June of the year he takes those classes (despite what some here think, AP is not needed for the Subject Tests).

For the 10th grader, if she’s taking pre-calc, even if math is not her thing, she should also take math 2 this year. World History is an option for this year, as well.

Off-topic from the original post, I know, but this is a reaaaaalllly bad idea. If advanced math (multivariable/linear algebra/differential equations) is not available in the school, you/he should check out online/community college options. To target a STEM school and then go without calculus for 3 years is not a good idea, IMO.

4

How much test prep for SAT subject tests is normal for ambitious kids?

Is it common (perhaps on the east coast) for teachers to be targeting the SAT subject tests somewhat in class? For World History, since it’s a potentially huge subject, I wonder how much, if any, material on the SAT subject test might not be included in an AP World History class (at a HS that cares about AP tests, but not much about SAT subject tests).

5

skieurope - I actually had a thread about the Math options for the current 9th grader a while back:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1699048-math-acceleration-on-track-to-run-out-of-math-courses-in-h-s.html#latest

Basically, the main options were he to want to go further while still in HS would be online/virtual (but we had a bad experience with this last year), or local community college (but creates transportation issues, and in any case, if he goes to, say, MIT, how much will MIT really want to accept Differential Equations credits from a local community college?). In any case, it’s probably not a decision we will need to face for another ~15 months - a lot can change between now and then…

6

It is totally dependent upon the school. I would say that it is uncommon. Certainly in my case it was not target at all.

Varies by kid. For me, zero.

7

I do not believe it is common for teachers to target SAT subject tests - definitely not at my kiddos’ school. My D did very little prep beyond the prep required for the AP tests. I suggested some prep for Math just because it may cover things that your child hasn’t seen in years and he/she might just want to brush up on that. (Caveat: I know this is true for the SAT 1. I don’t know if that’s true for the SAT Math subject tests.)

8

I would not have the less mathy kid take Math II unless she is headed for a math or STEM major. The curve is very tough. If she enjoys World History, that is a good one to take. However, in the past WH was not offered every test date, so watch for that. Get them prep books and have them study. No point in needing to take twice to get the desired scores.

9

In our school how well the curriculum lined up with the tests varied. Math 2 is ideally taken the year you finish pre-Calc. For a kid who is likely to head to engineering school they may also need Chemistry or Physics subjects. The best time for these is often the end of whatever year you take the AP. I think the chem AP lines up pretty well. They’ve change the AP Physics curriculum, I imagine the new two year version would cover everything, while Physics C is less useful because it covers fewer topics. If your kid will be taking AP US History that usually lines up very well with the subject tests - or at least it did for my kids who got perfect scores even the one who hated history. The best way of figuring out whether to take a test or not is to take the sample tests the College Board provides. This one: https://sat.collegeboard.org/practice/all-subject-study-guide While it’s nice to get the subject tests out of the way - it’s not a race.

10

MIT wouldn’t, but that’s not the point. Students don’t take those classes to get credit, although they may get it. They take those classes to show what they’re able to do and, to a certain extent, who they are. A student who wants to attend MIT shouldn’t be able to envision 3 years without math. Same thing at CalTech or HarveyMudd. Not taking math for 3 years virtually guarantees those schools won’t admit your child because it shows he is not interested in learning math, he’s just completing requirements - and those schools look for kids who see learning as as essential to living as water.

To get back to your original question: the best time to take the Subject test is in May or June when the relevant content was completed, regardless of how old the student is - MAth2 after precalculus, Foreign Language Subject after Level 4, etc. Schools don’t give specific SAT Subject test prep; students aren’t expected to know everything that’s on the test but they can prepare using a prep guide to minimize risks of encountering unknown topics. Minimal preparation is typically required if the high school is not low-performing. If the student doesn’t get a 700+, it’s always possible to retake the test. Only the highest scores will be used anyway. Foreign Language subject tests are the only ones that are like Aps and can waive some classes or even the whole requirement.

11

Actually, didn’t @sbjdorlo mention that MIT accepted transferred math course work from a California community college for subject credit for a student who was highly advanced in math while in high school and then went on to MIT as a math major?

Caltech and Harvey Mudd may be a different story, since their lowest level math courses are theory-and-proof-based and would be like what other schools would consider honors courses, if they are even offered. (But Caltech does have 3+2 arrangements with other schools as the “2” school, so there must be some kind of transfer subject credit allowed.)

12

^ they may or may not (depends on the CC, the class content, etc, etc), but that’s not the point; the point is that MIT wants students who love learning and wouldn’t even imagine going a year, let alone 3, without a fascinating subject such as math.

13

Saw my name mentioned.

Yes, what @ucbalumnus says is true: my son was able to transfer in (to the best of my knowledge): Calc III, Linear Algebra and Differential Equations from a San Diego Community College (actually two of them). As well, he got transfer credit for Arabic I and II, even though they were used to meet high school requirements. I have no idea why he got credit. He didn’t bother to try for US History credit, and MIT offers/offered no credit for his three Calc-based physics classes. He also got credit for Calc B/C AP exam.

As a result of the transfer units, he began MIT in junior level math classes, and finished his math requirements at the end of sophomore year.

Having said that, I believe it was unusual to get credit. I think he got credit because I tracked down his syllabuses, copies of the table of contents and chapters covered, and basically thoroughly documented what he learned (and getting As obviously helped). I can’t remember all they asked for, but we tracked it all down the summer before he began. I have heard of friends that did not get credit, even from UCSD, but I’m guessing they didn’t follow the documentation protocol.

Not to worry, though. MIT has ways to test out of courses (and my son, er, was too lazy to test out of any physics classes, despite auditing three upper division physics classes at the local Cal State, so he retook the hardest level mechanics…but that was fine, as he said it was like Olympiad level physics. It was all good.)

And yes, he’s graduating this year with a math degree and blessedly has both a job offer (data scientist) and an upcoming wedding after he graduates. Thoroughly, thoroughly thankful to God for His provisions.

And to link this back to OP’s question:

My son took two SAT II tests in 8th grade, physics and Math II, scoring 800 on physics and 760 on math. He retook Math II in sophomore year to get the 800 that we felt he should get. He also took the Lit subject test in junior year (730).

Of all the colleges to which he applied, only one, Caltech, demanded that he retake his physics exam. All other schools were fine with an 8th grade score, because they assumed, rightly, that he has only gotten more advanced in physics. Caltech would not bend on their requirement of a subject test being no more than two years old, so he retook it in January of his senior year (scoring 800 again-duh). In the end, he visited Caltech and really disliked it. So there ya go!

HTH.

14

Sorry, just had to add a few more comments after actually reading this thread.

So, some students take these classes cause they love math. That was/is my son. After he ran out of community college math classes in his sophomore year, he worked with a tutor online in a very casual way, learning more dif. eq, dynamical systems, and some real analysis. My son loved his mentor, and it was a great way to have a very unstressful study of awesome math topics. He also was involved in math circle and math competitions, but never put too much effort into it, and didn’t get past AIME.

But yeah, colleges love to see kids who love to learn. My son wrote an essay called “Calculus is Like Sucking My Thumb”, and talked about how he fell in love with Calculus at age 11 or 12, and would watch the Teaching Company videos for relaxation. Lest you think he’s a total nerd, he was an athlete, musician and chess player. Did I mention he was a hyperactive ADHD kid? :stuck_out_tongue: It got better the older he got. :slight_smile:

And I don’t know how much he studied for his subject tests-probably not much since he knew the material well just from college classes.

15

Really - Caltech had a TWO year time limit on these things? So even tests taken as a 10th grader couldn’t be used? Yikes.

More generally, I realize schools are different, and it’s a bit tricky as we don’t know quite what scope (selectivity and distance from home) the applications of our kids will cover, much less the specific schools (a few ideas, but very preliminary). As I said upthread, I don’t want our kids to waste their time on test taking and test prep if it’s not necessary, but still, this year (9th/10th depending on the kid) may be the best year for certain tests.

Also, for clarity, the 9th grader who is currently in Calc BC will likely take AP Stats next year. So at most, there’d likely be a 2 year math-less timeframe. At some point, AP Physics will likely come in, which isn’t a pure math course of course, but still… And finally, he’s likely to use some of the extra time in the mathless years for extra science - his HS has a lot of really nice advanced science options. Right now, I think his college major preference is for one of the pure natural sciences, but of course that could change - I assume that not only science, but also math, engineering, and probably some other possibilities will be candidates in the coming years…

16

Here is a list of the schools that require or recommend subject tests. http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/subject-test-requirements-and-recommendations/ My daughter took Bio in 9th grade, Chem in 10th grade and ended up taking Math 2 and two languages in 11th grade. Psychologically, having two in her pocket before she started 11th grade was helpful. She decided to take Math 2 because she may apply to engineering schools and she took the languages because she took the AP exams and figured why not.

17

@MWDadOf3 – Subject tests will be offered Nov, Dec, Jan, May & June. So that your 9th grader does not move further from the pre-calc curriculum tested on Math II, would you consider a test date earlier than May or June? Registration deadline for the Nov test is in four days, I believe. Late fees apply after that. Otherwise I agree that the end of the school year is the best time for these tests.

As to how much prep…will vary by student obviously. My son took one of the two Math II practice tests in the College Board book, brushed up on anything he did not immediately know, then sat for the second practice test from same book. Same approach for Bio subject test in 9th grade, except CB only released one sample test. I believe that he had to teach himself a small amount of material for each test.

My son prefers subject tests over SAT I as they are more straight forward and test content knowledge. (Fewer attempts to trick the test takers, in his opinion.)

18

MWDadof3, I’m chiming in to tell you about a good online option for higher level math couses. The SUNY system offers many online courses given by universities, colleges, and community colleges. DS took a great course this past summer from a cc. I noticed that Empire State College offers many higher level math courses online, and you never have to go to campus. They have people taking their courses from all over the world. I know that you can sign up as a nonmatriculated student instantly. You get credit and a transcript. I looked up some of the professors on ratemyprofessor, and some of them appear to be great teachers. You can look up courses from the entire SUNY system using SUNY online navigator, or Empire courses at esc.edu.

19

We had a very negative experience with an online course for him last year. Perhaps with more age/maturity and/or a better course, things could be better in the future, but I think it’s unlikely we’d go down that path in the next 2-3 years.

20

Some one taking an AP level language will probably do quite well on the subject test. If you aren’t taking the AP, but have had four years of a language it may be worth taking the subject test at the end of senior year. No need to report it if you don’t do well, but if you do,it may get you out of the language requirement at your college. There are usually placement tests at the college in the fall, but you may be rusty with a summer off.