Saudi divorces wife for watching male TV host

Parent Cafe
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<p>IANAL. In a “no-fault divorce state” I do not believe any cause of action needs to be stated to file for divorce. Did I get this wrong?</p>

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<p>Re: Jewish law, Mini is accurate, but understand that in America, the vast majority of Jewish marriages are accompanied by the civil marriage. The Reform movement dispensed with the “get” (religious divorce decree) many years ago, following this precept: “The law of the land (America, in this case) is the law.”</p>

<p>The Conservative and Orthodox movements still require a “get” for the purpose of remarriage. Failure of men to give wives a religious divorce puts women in a bad spot if they want to remarry, and it is the most unpleasant of all situations if she wants to remarry someone who practices according to tradition. She’s in legal limbo as an “agunah.” Feminists within orthodox Judaism are working upon this legal quandry in Israeli law.</p>

<p>Jewish law from Talmud also lists some reasons why a wife may be granted a divorce, for example if the man adopts certain odious trades following the marriage (if he works in a tannery, because of the stench). </p>

<p>In actual practice, if a Jewish woman wanted a divorce, she talked to the rabbis; if they deemed her reasons sound (beating, infidelity), they put pressure upon the man to initiate the religious divorce (as only he can do so under Jewish law). See the movie “Hester Street” starring Carol Kane for a stirring narrative. Sometimes today it’s part of the civil divorce in America that he also provide her a religious divorce (not just ignore this), so she’s free to move on with her life.</p>

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<p>I’ve never understand defending barbarism within a society (killing infant daughters, apartheid, slavery) with the argument, “well, that’s their custom and we shouldn’t judge them for it.” To hell with that. I don’t believe all customs are equally good, and I am more than comfortable with my right to make value judgments.</p>

<p>There was something about spending four years earning a liberal arts degree at the end of the Vietnam war era that has eventually led me to reject the idea that the societies supported by brutal autocracies – and even the occasional misguided democracy – are valid just because they already exist. I don’t care what is used as an excuse, human rights violation are human rights violations.</p>

<p>Divorcing a wife because the husband doesn’t like what she watched on television doesn’t seem like any stupider reason for divorce than an American man leaving his wife because he’s found a younger woman at work, or a wife leaving her husband because she thinks he’s become boring in middle age. This is not a human rights abuse. As much as I’m in favor of making fun of Saudi Arabia (see “sort of like Iran in 1979” in terms of being out of touch), this seems like a small, harmless target.</p>

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<p>I believe that you have to allege something. But as a practical matter, it’s an unimportant distinction. Because in America, if a man decides that he wants to divorce his wife because he has found a woman he finds more appealing sexually, or for any other reason, he is perfectly free to do so.</p>

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<p>I agree.</p>

<p>However, if the Saudi court reduces or eliminates the woman’s alimony because of her supposed indiscretion, then there may be some cause for scorn and ridicule.</p>

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<p>Perhaps the news story is news (that the Saudi court granted a divorce for being alone with the man on TV) because they gave identical status to Cyberman as InTheFleshMan.
DIdn’t we have a vice-president of the U.S. (Dan Quayle, under papa Bush) who referred to the T.V. character Murphy Brown as typifying moral decline when her onscreen character had a baby and she was a single mom? He spoke of her character as if she was a real person. Same stupidity.</p>

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<p>We’re not arguing the sanctity of marriage, or defending barbarisms. We are merely arguing that to point out that ONE man in Saudi Arabia divorced his wife for a stupid reason is no different than what happens in our civilized society and in every other society and religion on this planet. To pick on one religion or country seems hypocritical to me.</p>

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<p>We have read now many different responses. Forget female mutilation and many of the other accusations. Hell, forget the original comment about a Saudi husband being able to divorce his wife for no apparent reason.</p>

<p>The point of my comment, which some of you got and some of you didn’t, is that many are so quick to judge an entire nation, society, and it’s culture and history based on 1 action you read about. The point is, you believe that because you don’t agree with it and you don’t like it, then it must be bad. That is what this is all about. Not a man’s ability to divorce his wife in Saudi Arabia, but YOUR BELIEF that something should be changed because YOU DON’T LIKE IT. Who do you think you are?</p>

<p>Don’t give me any of this crap about injustices around the world. We have just as many injustices here in the USA. Again, I am not defending Saudi Arabia or any of these other customs. Re-read my first post and let it sink in. What I am questioning is your belief that something has to be done because YOU DON’T LIKE OR AGREE WITH IT. That IS THE PROBLEM. </p>

<p>The truth is, societies around the world for thousands and thousands of years can, have, and WILL find their balance. That is how societies are formed and exist. This was true thousands of years ago and it’s true now. You are looking at one rule, law, custom, belief, etc… in a culture. You have no idea about the ENTIRE social order and their culture, beliefs, religion, etc… BUT, because you don’t like 1 small little piece, you are outraged. THAT is the problem and the whole purpose of my post.</p>

<p>That is the problem in our society. People SCREAM about free speech, but let a teenager PRAY in the cafeteria at school before lunch and some parent goes ballistic. Let a little boy or girl use their imagination as all children do, and promote individuality. Yet, let one little kid in elementary school “Doodle” and draw a picture of a gun, just like all boys do with “Cowboys and Indians, Batman and Robin, Superman”, etc… and then the expel the child believing it’s part of hate and unsafe for the rest of the children.</p>

<p>Our society’s biggest problem is too many people putting their busy noses in other people’s business. Stop telling others how they are suppose to live. I have prided myself on allowing people to express their opinions. That is one reason I spent 21 years in the military. To promote the bill of rights. Especially freedom of speech. </p>

<p>Until now, I have NEVER said that anyone is WRONG in what they preach or believe. But I will say now, if you automatically conclude another culture, society, belief, religion, etc… is inhuman or barbaric because of a particular act or belief that you don’t agree with, then you ARE WRONG. If you believe that political correctness is what will fix all problems instead of people learning respect for each other, then you are WRONG. If you promote freedom of speech, right to choose, equal opportunity, etc… yet SOMEHOW you find something wrong with a woman WANTING to stay at home and raise children instead of working outside the home; or a woman who DOESN’T believe in abortion; or that it’s NOT NATURAL for children to be competitive and that competition is healthy for their later years; or that there is something wrong with a child fantasizing about being a super hero or a cowboy or soldier, etc… then YOU ARE WRONG.</p>

<p>You can not rationalize your position in this. Psychologists and psychiatrists have shown that most of this is natural. Yet, there are still those out there that believe that they are to be the cultural leaders and apostles of the world. Just because Saudi Arabia allows a man to divorce his wife for watching a television show doesn’t make it wrong. For some reason, you automatically believe that in such a society, that a man can’t be in LOVE with his wife. Do you think that men hate woman in Saudi Arabia? Do you think that they automatically enslave every woman? Just because it doesn’t fit your cultural understanding doesn’t make it wrong. Your opinion however of this IS wrong.</p>

<p>Anyway, this is the last time I will ever tell a person on a forum that they are wrong. FWIW, I did not direct this to any one person. It is directed towards ANYONE who automatically thinks the Saudi Culture is wrong because a man can divorce a woman for watching a television show alone. It’s for anyone who believes that they can apply their culture and beliefs to someone else’s and determine whether it is correct or not. It’s for anyone who thinks that because they don’t agree with what a woman, child, man, country, culture, etc… says, does, believes, etc… that it must be wrong and changed. It is to those, that I say THEY ARE WRONG.</p>

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<p>I still think saudis are cavemen in Lexuses.</p>

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<p>I think some cultures are clearly “WRONG” and have not progressed from the middle ages.</p>

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<p>"Re: Jewish law, Mini is accurate, but understand that in America, the vast majority of Jewish marriages are accompanied by the civil marriage. The Reform movement dispensed with the “get” (religious divorce decree) many years ago, following this precept: “The law of the land (America, in this case) is the law.”</p>

<p>You might be right, but as the plurality of American Jews are orthodox, and, of the orthodox, the fastest growing population group by far are Hassidim, and that plurality is growing, are you sure? </p>

<p>This is a very, very big issue in Israel. When two Reform Jews marry and then divorce (without a “get” from an orthodox rabbi), and remarry, the children of the second marriage are considered “mamzas” and forbidden from marrying Jews (or taking part in many different Jewish ritual practices) for ten generations. There are no exceptions. This has many “real-world” consequences, such as the “law of return”</p>

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<p>No, Christcorp, I think Saudi culture is wrong because it essentially subjugates its women. I don’t care if it’s cultural, I think that’s wrong.</p>

<p>It’s not like all the women in Saudi Arabia are on board with this whole “you have more or less no rights” deal. There have to be a significant number who would rather be more free. And as soon as there is one woman who wants rights that are curtailed because of Saudi Arabia’s archaic, misogynistic laws, I will consider it an injustice that she cannot have them.</p>

<p>Cultural relativism has its place; but that doesn’t mean that every culture is equally right. Would you consider female genital mutilation right, just because it is practiced in some cultures? I know I wouldn’t, especially when it goes along with what is almost always coercion. But maybe you’re OK with that, because those cultures have the right to do what they will.</p>

<p>I will always consider certain actions to be unjust, no matter how enshrined they are in a culture. And if a culture permits or promotes them, I will consider that culture to be promoting injustice. There are certain human rights that cannot be thrown thrown away justly by the monolithic institution that is culture, and that is the way it is.</p>

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<p>^ ???..who are they? what is your point?</p>

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<p>Cool. Israeli female soldiers. For my non-graphic, linear mind…can you spell out for me the debate point you’d like to make? I’m just not getting this.</p>

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<p>I guess my point is that Jewish women who live in Jewish nations (of which there are only 1) aren’t really oppressed the way that Muslim women living in many Muslim nations are oppressed.</p>

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<p>Israeli women are all required to do 2 years of military service between h.s. and university; for men, 3 years. Women aren’t in combat; other than that, the two genders both serve equally. It’s considered a shared responsibility.
They begin university studies after the military service. So yes, they know how to do laundry by then! Their big leave-taking from home occurs when they go to the army, not college.</p>

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<p>All true. The main reason I linked to those photos is because I believe there is a lot of symbolism in carrying a weapon. Especially if it’s open, casual, without direct supervision, and with the sanction of one’s government.</p>

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<p>Sorry 1of42, but you just don’t get it. My point has nothing to do with Saudi Arabian men being able to divorce their wife. It has to do with you or anyone else saying that a custom, belief, cultural norm, etc… is wrong because you don’t agree with it. </p>

<p>Personally, I don’t think you know very much about the Saudi culture. That is my point. Because it is legal for a man to divorce a woman because she watched a tv show my herself, you have made certain assumptions. All women must be subjugated in that country. All men must think of women no more than a slave or possession. Women have no rights in the family socio-economic structure. In other words, if women in Saudi Arabia don’t have the exact same rights, lifestyle, freedoms, etc… that a woman has here in the United States, then the Saudi woman must in fact be miserable. That way of thinking is what is wrong.</p>

<p>Not knowing their society, you assume that a woman has little or no rights. It’s a different culture and history that spawns it’s own society. Doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t make it wrong. Just different. But because you compare it to your society, and it’s different, it must be wrong.</p>

<p>That is why the military, UN, Peace-Corp, religious missionaries, etc… have such a difficult time. They all try to assist different countries in their own way, while most times trying to maintain that society’s ability to keep it’s culture. But, there’s also too many people that think that all these culture, countries, societies, etc… need to conform to a “Modern Western” philosophy. Because we think ours is more modern and therefor it must automatically be better. </p>

<p>Unless you have lived or at least visited some of these cultures, you will have a difficult time trying to say that you know for a fact that their women are miserable and that they have no rights.</p>

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<p>I didn’t assume anything except that some Saudi women must aspire to greater rights than their patriarchal society accords them. Do you disagree that there are some that aspire to that?</p>

<p>Given that assumption, which I am 100% certain is a solid one, there must be some women who are being forced to do things that they would not want to, in the name of the Islamic ideals on which the society is founded. And I hold that infringement upon liberty to be wrong. It’s as simple as that.</p>

<p>I also notice that you fully ignored my question regarding other, clearly barbaric practices in different societies (female genital mutilation, etc.). Must we withhold judgment on those simply because they are cultural? I think not.</p>

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<p>"
Personally, I don’t think you know very much about the Saudi culture."</p>

<p>Guilty. I just know what I read and watch about treatment of women and abuse of imported domestic labor (from third world countries).</p>