Saudi divorces wife for watching male TV host

Parent Cafe
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<p>What you know is that one Saudi man divorced his wife because she watched a male on television. And you condemm an entire culture because of it. An american man would be equally within his rights here to do the same thing. And probably has. Yet you don’t condem the U.S. for some of the things american men do that make the headlines. What about Chester Arthur Stiles who raped and videotaped a little girl? Do you think all american men do that? </p>

<p>And if you don’t think the U.S. imports labor (legally or illegally) from third world countries, you’re kidding yourself.</p>

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<p>“And if you don’t think the U.S. imports labor (legally or illegally) from third world countries, you’re kidding yourself.”</p>

<p>The operative word was ‘abuse’.</p>

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<p>1of42; you probably don’t want to hear this, but most Saudi men hold women in high esteem. They have their traditions and such, but it is nothing like you want to believe. And if worse comes to worse, she could always move to another country if she wanted.</p>

<p>In Saudi Arabia, many woman are Doctors, journalists, nurses, banking, utility and computer operations, university professors, etc… They have high school and college degrees. They’ve studied abroad. And so on. Yes, there are some rural ultra conservative sects out there, but that like stereotyping everyone in Kentucky as being ignorant and inbred because of something you read about hillbillies. </p>

<p>Again, you are making a comment based on 1 simple scenario about something you have no idea of. And NO, I am not going to comment about your examples of female mutilation and such. You want to trap someone into an analogy only to support your position. It can’t be. The same theory would contend that every white person in Alabama is a racist, bigot, and member of the KKK. They must be, because I saw a white man get into a fight with a black man and used a racial slur.</p>

<p>I’ve been to dinner in a Saudi house. Except for the language, which they politely spoke English for me, they seemed like what you would call "NORMAL’. Obviously I recognize the culture and customs. I’m not going to give the Saudi women a “Hug or a kiss” when I greet them. I didn’t even shake her hand. But I was allowed to speak directly to her and she was able to answer me. I even watched where the husband and wife got into some disagreement; I don’t know about what; but she turned out to be the typical nagging wife. I mean that in a positive way. She stood up for her position and basically told her husband the way things were going to be. She didn’t have to wear a vale while at home.</p>

<p>The point is, you don’t know their culture. Just because you don’t like something doesn’t make it wrong. What is wrong is deciding that what people do is wrong only for the fact that you don’t like it. That is wrong.</p>

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<p>Christcorp, EVERYONE makes value judgments. I don’t know of a single person who doesn’t have strong opinions about right and wrong, depending upon the issue at question. For instance, YOU have judged rather severely the right of others on this thread to have an opinion about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia. </p>

<p>I say the height of freedom (especially in a culture such as ours, where such things are actually guaranteed by law) is the individual’s right to hold and express an opinion. You certainly have in this thread. Why is that your right, and not Simba’s?</p>

<p>By the way, I don’t recall Simba saying the rest of the world should force it’s will upon Saudi Arabia, do you? Furthermore, I don’t think she should feel obliged to respect Saudi Arabia’s treatment of women any more than anyone should have “respected” the American practice of slavery, or Hitler’s practice of exterminating the Jews, or Sadam Hussein’s chemical bombing of the Kurds. Some things are just wrong. Period. And it’s OK to say so. (In MY OWN, Constitutionally guaranteed opinion;))</p>

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<p>“For instance, YOU have judged rather severely the right of others on this thread to have an opinion about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia.”</p>

<p>See, that is where you are incorrect. I never judged anyone on their opinion about the treatment of Saudi women. Matter of fact, I’ve been repeatedly saying that my point has absolutely nothing to do with the treatment of Saudi women. What I have been emphasizing is that no one should make statements and judge an entire culture because they don’t happen to like something about it. Especially when they know very little about that culture in the first place. There were a number of posts automatically claim Saudi men as cavemen, barbaric, that their culture is wrong, etc…</p>

<p>You say that I have judged a poster’s “RIGHT” to an opinion. You’re mistaken. I defend to my last breath each poster’s right to all the opinions they want to have. It doesn’t matter if I agree with them or not. But I am not trying to change or stop those opinions because I don’t happen to agree with them. There seems to be people on this forum that would, if they could, stop an entire culture a people because they don’t happen to agree with some of their customs. Even though they know very little of it. Hmmmm, sounds a lot like what happened to the Jew in Germany in the 30’s and 40’s. Don’t like a culture, get rid of it.</p>

<p>So, postheart, if you want to accuse me of something, at least be accurate. I am not stopping or belittling anyone’s opinion or their right to express it. I am simply saying that before they try and take a permanent stance on such a position, that they learn a little bit about what they are talking about. That, most of all, is what opinions are for. To get people to not only express themselves and for them to hear others, but for them to question their own opinions and positions once they’ve heard others.</p>

<p>Then again, that’s what this is all about. Fighting for what you believe a person has a right to. Yet, because some don’t like, or more accurately “Understand”, customs of another country, they would like to stop them from their right to exist. No, I’m not trying to hinder anyone’s right to an opinion. But there was another thread that ties into this one where people were talking about having opinions based solely on emotions without knowing the facts. This is one of those times. Yes, everyone here is entitled to their opinion. I will never try and stop that. I will fight for the right to free speech even when I don’t agree with it. I took an oath to do that and I will ALWAYS fight for that right. For EVERYONE. Not just those I agree with. But see, I also believe in that for other cultures to.</p>

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<p>Christcorp, I don’t care how well the various women who you met are treated in Saudi Arabia. The plural of anecdote is not statistic. So here are some more broad brush strokes for you:</p>

<p>What I care about is that women are not allowed to drive without a male relative’s consent.
What I care about is that women make up only 5% of the workforce in Saudi Arabia.
What I care about is that women are not allowed to testify in court cases unless the testimony regards something that took place away from any men (the explanation being, among other things, that women are more emotional than men and thus would not testify reliably).
What I care about is that women are explicitly not allowed, by law, to leave the house without a male relative’s consent.
What I care about is that women are forced to dress a certain, restrictive way, to toe to Islamic law.
What I care about is that homosexuality is punishable by death.
What I care about is that religions other than Islam cannot publicly be practiced (though Christianity is often allowed to unofficially be practiced out of the public eye, Judaism and atheism are not given such accommodations).</p>

<p>Do you dispute that those human rights abuses and clear violations of certain groups’ liberties occur?</p>

<p>Even if they infringe upon only a minority’s rights, that does not make them better. If we decided to execute all gays, would that be right, simply because it only affects ~10% of the population? Or, in a real world example, was Saddam Hussein a just leader because only the Kurds felt the true brunt of his brutal dictatorship? The measure of how good a society is is not how its most well-treated citizens live, but how well its worst do.</p>

<p>I firmly believe that there are certain things that are wrong. Just because they are enshrined in “culture” does not make them any more right in my mind. You seem proud to defend peoples’ liberty to express themselves freely. I defend that fully, but I also fully defend people’s rights to their own set of basic liberties, regardless of who they are. Insofar as Saudi Arabia does not, I hold their culture to be archaic and abusive in many ways.</p>

<p>Just because an idea is cultural does not mean I will not criticize it. That is a taboo that I cannot fathom, that simply because the impetus of many people and a long tradition stand behind an idea it should be immune to criticism.</p>

<p>Finally, if you’re so enamored of free speech, and you believe I should not criticize Saudi Arabia’s culture, since they have a right to it, it should follow that you do not have the right to criticize me for exercising my right to criticize them. Especially if I tell you that my judging of their culture is part of *my culture<a href=“which,%20of%20course%20it%20isn’t,%20but%20the%20idea%20of%20culture%20is%20arbitrary%20enough%20that%20you%20can’t%20define%20what%20is%20or%20isn’t”>/i</a>. You can’t have this both ways. Either you stop criticizing me for exercising my right to criticize Saudi Arabia, and accept that you have no right to judge who I criticize, or you accept that I absolutely have the right to criticize them, accept that just because someone is different does not automatically mean they are right, and you can continue to debate.</p>

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<p>You’re right. The entire Saudi culture, civilization, Islamic religion, and way of life is wrong and should be overthrown. Your way is obviously the only way that is “civilized”. When you’re done civilizing that part of the world, let me know. We can start working on the Amish and Mennonites next. I’m out of this one.</p>

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<p>I don’t know that we should necessarily force others to change, but we also shouldn’t be abashed over criticism where it’s due.</p>

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<p>And I never said I would force others to change, but I will not let the fact that inequities are “culture” stop me from criticizing them.</p>

<p>Christcorp: Good move, throw out a nice straw man argument to deflect attention away from the fact that I’m clearly right. Good on you.</p>

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<p>1of42,</p>

<p>I’m generally of the same opinion as you regarding inequities, but I do admit that defining “inequities” is, in itself, a rather onerous task. Many jump up and down quite vigorously at the idea of female genital alteration, but are quite wan about circumcision in males. Others criticize the fact that a woman in Japan is taught to cherish motherhood over career, yet never bother to ask if our career-centered life is necessarily “better.”</p>

<p>Not that Saudi falls into the latter category (it’s obviously far more extreme,) but cultural chauvanism and/or imperialism should be avoided whenever possible.</p>

<p>As far as Saudi goes, I think that the blog written by “The Religious Policeman” is an interesting take on the situation, whether or not it was written by an actual Saudi.</p>

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<p>Agreed, it’s very onerous. Which is why, near the borderlines of issues between cultures, things become much more contentious and open to debate. However, as I said before, there are a number of values that I hold to be inalienable rights; certain personal liberties, and protection against infringements upon those liberties, for example. When a culture does not respect those core values, I will criticize it, as is my right. I will even display at least a hint of cultural chauvinism. :wink: </p>

<p>At my core, I believe that some ideas are better than others (banning slavery is better than slavery, allowing females, different races, and other groups equal rights is better than not, and so forth), and while I am very careful to avoid sticking on every minor point, there are some on which I will not be silent.</p>

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<p>1of42,</p>

<p>I tend to avoid culture issues (it’s usually outside of the scope of what I study AND it’s unavoidably complicated), but I do have a lingering interest in the issues of culture versus rights.</p>

<p>For example, is a Japanese woman’s choosing to stay in the home an issue of cultural attacks on individual sovereign rigths, or just the consequence of mores?</p>

<p>…okay, so I’ll be fair: that in particular is really my primary question, but it’s far outside of the scope of this discussion. Thankfully-- and unfortunately-- Saudi is a clear example of culture gone bad. </p>

<p>Nonetheless, being that I’m trained in grad school to avoid simply pointing out problems, I start thinking about the ever-so-sticky issue of a solution. What, if anything, is a solution to Saudi bad behavior? Sanctions have a notoriously poor history, and it’s clear that the ruling regime is not about to enforce any sweeping changes. It’s possible that cutting off oil revenue in an act of “hawk engagement” would possibly put pressure on the ruling regime, but the likelihood of the US doing that is about zero.</p>

<p>Underground feminist groups, perhaps?</p>

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<p>I find the lines of reasoning (or lack thereof) on this thread extremely interesting.</p>

<p>I have yet to see anyone condemning the entire Saudi population because of the actions of this one man. What I have seen is questioning whether one simply sits back and accepts cultural differences, even those as horrific as honor killings and female genital mutilation, simply because they ARE cultural differences? To say that Americans cannot possibly understand the Saudi (or other middle eastern or sub-Saharan cultures), and thus we don’t know that women are really so unhappy with their situation, is patently ridiculous.</p>

<p>I am not suggesting imposing sanctions, or forcing sweeping changes on such countries or their actions in any way. I am simply suggesting that sitting back and accepting violent and often deadly actions as “cultural differences” is absurd. Criticism is the least we can do, and should do. </p>

<p>Human rights ought to be an absolute, and stoning women to death because they walk out of the house without a male relative, should be condemned. I don’t care whether or not it is the cultural norm. No woman should be subjected to the treatment that many are in far too many cultures in the world.</p>

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<p>I wish I believed that the US diplomats and politicians were “harpies” and nags on these issues in direct conversation with their counterparts in the middle east. I fear the conversations and confrontations center around more economic issues which affect the rich and powerful, and support our self-powered lifestyle. Each and every conversation should begin and end with insistance that females have equal rights and privileges, and real choice about whether to exercise those opportunties. </p>

<p>Some relevant points about cultural mores, to which we subjugate our population all too often. While women in this country appreciate their career opportunties for what they are, i.e. an open door to choice, probably the financial support of families and their life-styles are the bigger factors in career driven lives, those of both males and females.</p>

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<p>Wading into waters that are very rough, let me throw out this idea and see if it helps anything:</p>

<p>Americans view things in terms of individual rights that we so cherish. Freedom of movement, assembly, speech, expression…people have died for those rights, and others including probably Christcorp would do so again.</p>

<p>Other societies are much more focussed on group rights. They willingly subsume individual freedoms when they perceive that, as a package deal, their society will uphold them as individuals PROVIDING they don’t buck the group’s norms and rules.</p>

<p>As a Jewish woman who values her personal liberty, I could never understand how more traditional Jewish women give up plenty of freedoms to be part of the ultra-ORthodox movements. But in face-to-face conversation, they assure me that they are so upheld by the system of the group that, on balance, they feel it is worth it to forego some individual freedoms of expression. Their men honor and cherish them, as long as they play by the rules. She gives up some freedom of expression in the synagogue, because she can’t read publicly from the Torah, whereas I can and do in my synagogue. BUt nobody, nobody is threatening her LIFE if she doesn’t go out with her head covered in a hat one day. She can own and inherit property, vote in our country’s elections, and so on. In the religious life, hers is understood to be an equally sanctified, if different, set of roles than the male. Rabbinic interpretations in Talmud, and upheld to this day, repeatedly assert that the female role in keeping a kosher household and raising children ethically and responsibly is Essential to the religion. There is no subservience; it is a partnership with equal respect, although it might not look like that from the outside (ultra-traditional Jewish women cover their ankles with long skirts, etc.).</p>

<p>But I do NOT feel that carries over when I look, or try to look, behind the veil of a woman living in a Muslim nation governed by fundamentalist religious principles of Islam. Yes, they “cherish and protect” their women, as a group–so say the Muslim women and men. But I don’t buy it. There comes a point where her basic HUMAN rights are not protected. Here are some value-clarifying questions to ask yourself: Do you believe that it’s a basic human right as an adult to walk out of your doorway unescorted and without asking anyone (male)'s permission? Do you think a woman should be able to cast a vote in a national election (not that there are any, but if there were…)? Should her word be believed in a courtroom…not just over her marriage but if she were witness to any crime, for example? If you think “Yes” then I think you must conclude that the cost exacted from Saudi women, for the privelege of being protected, is simply too great. Their culture is repressive to women’s basic human rights.</p>

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<p>Christcorp, reading your posts, nothing is ever wrong or bad or evil, isn’t it ?<br>
If a culture is bent on beating up on women, then that’s their culture, who are we to cast our opinion, right? In some Indian villages a widow is expected to jump (sometime thrown) into her husband’s funeral pyre. That’s their tradtional, right ? Maybe griefing wives like to dive into flame to be with her deceased husband, why force “western” values on them , right ?</p>

<p>While I disagreed with 1of42 on many other issues, I think she is right in voicing concerns for women in the world who can’t speak for themselves.</p>

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<p>Haha, that’s the first time I’ve ever been mistaken for a woman. :wink: I’ll take it as a complement on my defense of women’s rights. :P</p>

<p>paying3tuitions: I agree, some people are more comfortable giving up their individual rights in favor of group rights. But in societies where that is the norm, there will be some people who are uncomfortable with it, and the fact that they are inevitably stifled and infringed upon by those societies is something I find unacceptable.</p>

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<p>1of42, I somehow always assumed you were a woman, too…not sure why, though…:rolleyes:</p>

<p>Assumption adjusted. Carry on.</p>