<p>It would probably help Frey if he also destroyed the pictures, ensured that any that he forwarded were destroyed and apologized too. The latter would seem to be a no-brainer to me, and, I’d hope, any attornies involved.</p>
<p>Interesting take by the female judge in the case.</p>
<p>[Sex</a> assault victim groped by off-duty cop wants apology from Arizona judge - U.S. News](<a href=“U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics, Economy, and Society | NBC News”>U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics, Economy, and Society | NBC News)</p>
<p><em>weeps for women</em></p>
<p>Women are often harshest on other women it seems. It was a female governor who defunded sexual assault and DV programs in her state. I have a feeling there would have been much more outrage if a male governor had done that or a male judge had said this.</p>
<p>Interesting stuff has come out after an investigation into the affairs of the Boston University Hockey Team.</p>
<p>BC–</p>
<p>What investigation? can you post a link?</p>
<p>[Salacious</a> details emerge from BU hockey subcommittee reports - Metro - The Boston Globe](<a href=“Sex, drinking detailed in report on BU hockey - The Boston Globe”>Sex, drinking detailed in report on BU hockey - The Boston Globe)</p>
<p>I heard about it on the radio but it’s pretty easy to find articles on this.</p>
<p>romanigypsyeyes–do you see this as a “black or white” issue?</p>
<p>Well–I think there are people (women and men)who think a victim can have failed to exercise good judgment and in that sense have some personal responsibility for what happens to them even if what happened may be criminal conduct.</p>
<p>If you (as an adult) see on the internet that there is shooting going on at X and you jump in your car and rush down to “where it is happening” and get shot, you may be a victim of a shooting but IMO you have shown a lack of good judgment and have some personal responsibility for having been shot.</p>
<p>IMO good judgment, even in minor males and females, recognizes that: </p>
<p>(a) alcohol consumption can impair good judgment and loosen inhibitions of minors</p>
<p>(b) “stuff” seems to “happen” when a minor is somewhere under circumstances and engaging in conduct that their parents have warned them against and/or the minor knows they would disapproved of if the minor told them in advance.</p>
<p>IMO all these minors involved in this incident used bad judgment and have some personal responsibility (even if the female has no legal duty or legal responsibility) concerning what happened.</p>
<p>I don’t think that it is unbelievable that people may feel that a girl who invites/sneaks guys over into her parents’ house when the parents aren’t going to be there, makes the parents’ alcohol available to the guys and herself consumes enough alcohol to be incoherent or quasi or actually passed out has shown bad judgment and has some personal responsibility for the events even when she is the legal victim of a crime. </p>
<p>I don’t think that it is unbelievable that people may feel that a guy who goes over to a girl’s parents’ house when the parents aren’t going to be there, drinks the girl’s parents’ alcohol and sticks around until the girl consumes enough alcohol to be incoherent or quasi or actually passed out has shown bad judgment and has legal liability and personal responsibility for the events that occur even if it was “only intended as a prank.”</p>
<p>Together these kids forever changed all their lives by their collective bad judgment and they all have personal responsibility even if only some of them have committed a crime.</p>
<p>07, there is nothing in the world that is a black or white issue. </p>
<p>I do take great offense to any implication that being in a bar or drinking is an invitation to get groped, molested, or raped. </p>
<p>I DO encourage women to make choices that keep themselves safe, but I do NOT EVER blame a victim. With that said, I have stated before that I DO believe males can be victims of a woman’s regret. That’s why I encourage men to make good choices as well.</p>
<p>And EVEN IF they were COMPLETELY drunk at the time, they were NOT drunk in the aftermath of what happened (when they kept the pictures, etc) and that to me shows that this was not simply a lapse in judgement on the basis of alcohol.</p>
<p>Judge Hatch is up for re-election in 2014. It will be interesting to see if she has any opponents and if she gets re-elected.</p>
<p>“And EVEN IF they were COMPLETELY drunk at the time, they were NOT drunk in the aftermath of what happened (when they kept the pictures, etc) and that to me shows that this was not simply a lapse in judgement on the basis of alcohol.” – from Roman</p>
<hr>
<p>This – and this is why one boy deserves much worse than the other.</p>
<p>07DAD,</p>
<p>Had Savannah not gone public, her life would have been changed forever, but not Frey or Zehnder. I think that it what makes her and many women so angry.</p>
<p>One time I stupidly left my house unlocked. A burglar came in and robbed me. OK, that was dumb of me.</p>
<p>However, if that burglar were caught, I don’t think anyone would say their sentence should be reduced even one tiny whit. My having foolishly left my house unlocked doesn’t make the burglar any less to blame. It’s not any excuse for burglary. They stole my stuff!</p>
<p>Similarly, Savannah Dietrich unwisely invited these young men over and drank too much. That was foolish. But that doesn’t excuse their raping her even one tiny little bit. She was foolish, but they were criminal attackers. They raped her! They are completely to blame for their crime.</p>
<p>I am not sure what to make of this distinction from a policy standpoint but in many states if the victim and attacker are the same size, same weight, and voluntarily drink the same amount of alcohol and are both intoxicated with the same blood alcohol level, the rape victim does not have legal capacity to consent as a matter of law, but the attacker has the capacity to commit the crime.</p>
<p>Razor, </p>
<p>In this case Frey and Zehnder were both sober enought to carry the unconscious victim to her room. In addition, pictures were shown days aftewards. Your points, imho, are not relevant here.</p>
<p>razorsharp, in the many discussions we have had around this issue in the past, I have expressed my belief that when two equally drunk kids voluntarily go to bed together and have sex that they both think is consensual, it is unfair to say that the boy raped the girl because SHE supposedly could not give consent while HE supposedly could. </p>
<p>But this case is different. Savannah was not voluntarily engaging in sex with the boys when this happened. They sexually abused her inert, semi-conscious body, and TOOK PICTURES while they did so. </p>
<p>There is no gray area here.</p>
<p>Cross-posted with Kayf: two excellent points that make the siutation even clearer. As romani said upthread, they might have sexually abused her while they were drunk. But when they chose to show the photos to others, they were stone cold sober. No excuse there.</p>
<p>My comment was an observation in general and not about the three teens in the Dietrich case. In the Dietrich case it appears they were not equally intoxicated. It appears that the girl was more intoxicated.</p>
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<p>All too often, the drunk guy thinks he gave consent, and the drunk guy thinks she gave consent. Look at the Dietrich case. One of the attackers defended himself by saying that she gave consent by not saying No (even though she had passed out on the floor). That’s exactly what he said in his police interview.</p>
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<p>The attacker demonstrated the capacity to commit the crime by committing it. </p>
<p>Are you suggesting that being too drunk is a defense against a criminal charge? Does that apply to drunk driving as well: “Gee, judge, sorry about getting behind the wheel and running over the toddler, I was too drunk to realize drunk driving is a bad idea”? How about murder: “Your honor, I was loaded when I got home from the bar, so when my wife started nagging, I was too drunk to resist shooting her”?</p>
<p>Nope, being drunk is no defense. Not to drunk driving, not to murder, not to rape. If you have a tendency to get drunk and commit crimes, don’t drink so much.</p>
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<p>Actually, I am not suggesting anything. I am noting what appears to be circumstances when the exact same behavior and physical condition is treated differently. Let’s say hypothetically a driver is intoxicated with a .22 blood alcohol level and runs over a pedestrian on a sidewalk but does not realize it. A few minutes later the driver meets a sober friend who recognizes that the driver has been drinking heavily. The sober friend asks the driver if the driver wishes to have sex and the driver says yes. They have sex but the next day the driver reports the sober friend to the police. The same judge hears the drunk driving charge and the rape charge. Under the laws of most states, the sober friend is convicted of rape because the driver lacked consent. The driver is convicted of drunk driving resulting in the death of a pedestrian because the driver had the mental capacity to commit a crime. The driver has the same physical circumstances in each case but there are different policy considerations.</p>
<p>“I am not sure what to make of this distinction from a policy standpoint but in many states if the victim and attacker are the same size, same weight, and voluntarily drink the same amount of alcohol and are both intoxicated with the same blood alcohol level, the rape victim does not have legal capacity to consent as a matter of law, but the attacker has the capacity to commit the crime.”</p>
<p>Do we have everyone’s weights, heights and blood alcohol levels? What happens when it’s two to one? This is a comical post.</p>