<p>Would it help if I put a sign on my bike that says, “NO”? Will that lessen the risk that somebody will steal it? </p>
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<p>This is why very serious penalites are needed for Frey/Zehnder (although I thought that one was less deserving of serious penalties than the other, Hunt and 07Dad have now convinced me otherwise). If people think NO is a joke, more serious penalties are needed.</p>
<p>This is one sexual assult myth that’s been debunked long ago.</p>
<p>[Sexual</a> Assault Myths - The Myths About Sexual Assault](<a href=“http://crime.about.com/od/sex/a/rape_myths.htm]Sexual”>Racial Stereotypes in TV Shows and Movies)</p>
<p>From the above link:</p>
<p>"Myth: The victims ‘ask for it’ by their dress.</p>
<p>False - No one ‘asks’ to be assaulted. In addition, when most attackers decide to assault someone, how they are dressed is of little consequence."</p>
<p>Your statements that certain dress is “risky” implies this myth. This is my opinion and I am entitled to it. You can certainly disagree.</p>
<p>I don’t actually think the way people dress is risky. I do think drinking to the point of passing out is risky, or drinking to the point of out of control inebriation is risky. I do think taking drinks from strange boys at frat parties is dangerous. I think going alone to some boy’s room with him, after having many drinks is risky. I think putting your red cup down and going back and picking it back up is risky. I think going with a group of guys you don’t know to go do something without a group of friends with you is risky.</p>
<p>I also believe that walking in a dark alley in a dangerous neighborhood is dangerous, going to hotel rooms, as a grown woman, with men you just met is dangerous. I believe working at a seven eleven at night is dangerous. I believe sleeping with your windows open on the first floor is dangerous. I believe getting drunk and going swimming is dangerous. Night swimming in the ocean is dangerous and risky even if you are sober. Drunk boating is extremely risky behavior.</p>
<p>Rock climbing is risky. Ice climbing is risky, and I definitely cautioned my kids against skiing under the chair lift, out of bounds or in the trees.</p>
<p>Riding your bike at night, or running at night without or even with reflective clothing is risky behavior.</p>
<p>However, so is getting on the expressway and an airplane, and we do it anyway, every day. The point is to take calculated risks. If my pilot shows up drunk, I’m getting off the plane. If my ride home is drunk, I"m taking a cab. If my date is drunk, I’m going home, with a friend or alone, immediately. </p>
<p>But, I don’t think dressing a certain way is risky behavior. Guys these days have seen it all.</p>
<p>“Look, I should have the right to park my bike on the street safety without locking it up. I suppose I could make a statement about my right to do so by parking it without locking it up”</p>
<p>Wow! Are you seriously going to equate not locking up a bike with a certain type of dress?</p>
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It’s my opinion that choice of dress can be risky in certain situations. I wish it wasn’t true, but my wishes don’t change the reality of the world. I’d be very interested in the basis for the opinion that choice of dress for a woman doesn’t affect the risk that she will be subject to unwanted attention. It’s certainly contrary to my experience and observations.</p>
<p>My comment about the bike was simply my way of expressing my annoyance at what appears to me to be the willful refusal to attempt to understand what I’m trying to say.</p>
<p>Well, your experience differs from the findings of experts such as the New York City Detective Bureau, which was the source of the article linked above. “…when most attackers decide to assault someone, how they are dressed is of little consequence.” This thread is about assault and I am referring to assault, a crime, not unwanted attention. I detect some backpedaling.</p>
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<p>Picture a young single woman (legally dressed) going into a bar but dressed “provocatively” (based on what you would would define as provocative, possibly e.g. very short skirt and plunging neckline, etc.). She has chosen among all of her clothes and selected that particular outfit to go to the bar where she knows men will be attending. I hope we can all agree that her style of dress does not mean she has consented to being sexually assaulted. I hope we can all agree that if she were sexually assaulted, her manner of dress would not be a successful defense to that assault. I am curious what others think about is she conveying a message by her manner of dress. If so, what might be that message? Any takers?</p>
<p>Gee, Razor, I might think she is proud of her body. Do guys who go to the gym and show off their muscles invite homosexual assaults?</p>
<p>I feel like I’m in a time warp.</p>
<p>Ohiomom, I agree, some of these comments are scary to me, ESPECIALLY, on a CC board. Most of the people are here because we want a good education for our kids. It’s not a reactionary crowd for the most part. Yet some people seem to hone in on whatever they even think they can find to blame the girl (like did the girl ever allow pictures before? how was she dressed/how much was she drinking? aren’t girls who do this responsible?). </p>
<p>07DAD talks about how both men and women suffer when these things happen, yet had Savannah not gone public, Frey and Zehnder would only have had 50 hours of community service. It is clear to me that we need tougher courts on this.</p>
<p>razorsharp, throughout human history men have sexually assaulted women, whether they were wearing sackcloths or fig leaves or floor-length gowns or burqas. What message were those women sending with their manner of dress?</p>
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<p>It’s one court and one case. My experience is that most judges issue tough sentences in sexual assault cases. I don’t think we need tougher courts just because one prosecutor negotiated a plea deal that seems light.</p>
<p>why couldn’t a woman who dresses in a sexy manner be conveying that she may have interest in attracting or meeting a man. someone to talk with and laugh with and dance with. why would any other connotation be necessary.</p>
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<p>Perhaps she’s conveying a message that she wants CONSENSUAL sex. Which, BTW, is not the same thing as “asking for” rape.</p>
<p>I’m right there with you, OhioMom.</p>
<p>Razor, I say we need tougher courts not only because of this one court, but because of comments here from what seem to be relatively educated people to the effect that a woman can be dressed asking for it, and want to put the responsiblity on women.</p>
<p>One thing I want to be clear about here is that I in no way, and I mean NO WAY, believe a woman is asking to be sexually assaulted no matter what she is wearing or what she is doing, for that matter. A woman could be pole dancing, imho, and still be completely in her right to say no. Heck, even strip clubs acknowledge that a woman stripping has the right to not be touched by anyone. So, let’s be clear on that. A woman’s body is hers. No always means no. No answer also means no. Being unconcious is not a “yes.” Only yes means yes.</p>
<p>Also, I believe a woman who wants to go out and have consensual sex with ten guys a week is within her rights to say “no” to the eleventh, at. any. point. in. the. encounter. A woman’s body is her own. At no point in any encounter with anybody else does she ever lose the right to say no. Not even halfway through “the act,” if it becomes upleasant or fails to please her. Just sayin’. </p>
<p>I did teach my girls, however, that there are, unfortunately predatory types out there, and, mainly as it relates to alcohol and drugs, to just be very careful, and very aware. I do not think, however, that a girl who passes out from having too much to drink is “asking for” a thing. Not one single thing. And I do believe anyone around her who uses this opportunity for criminal or evil actions should be punished, just as if a young man passed out and was raped or had his wallet stolen. This also happens, btw.</p>
<p>I just want to be clear about what I am saying.</p>
<p>Poet, I do not disagree with you, and I did not think you were trying to put responsibility on victims in sexual assault situations. </p>
<p>I find it revolting when others cheer on your good advice in an attempt to find victims responsible. Its scary.</p>
<p>As a mother of two teen daughters, as a woman for that matter, I find some of the comments on this thread to be horrifying.</p>
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I detect a failure to actually read my prior messages.</p>
<p>By the way, I find it peculiar that kayf agrees with poetgirl–who, as best I can tell, is essentially saying the same thing I am–while attacking me. Why is that? Did she make her point more nicely?</p>
<p>Hunt, it seems to me that while Poet may bring up the same suggestions to her daughter, Poet is suggesting these for the daughter’s own protection, that you and 07DAD are suggesting that it is the RESPONSIBILTIY of women to stop rapes. </p>
<p>To me, there is a difference.</p>