You are reading into my comments something that is not there, or at least misinterpreting them. My point is that everyone has to behave prudently to minimize their own risk of harm. This is why you have to lock up your bike, why you don’t leave your keys in your unlocked car, why you don’t walk alone in a dark street at night, and why you don’t drink the punch at the frat party. Reasonable minds can disagree about whether particular actions impose risk (like clothing choices), but the idea is a simple one. I’m not surprised that women, in particular, don’t like this reality, because it seems to me that there are more actions that women OUGHT to be free to do that in fact expose them to risk. That’s certainly not fair. But predators don’t consider fairness in choosing their targets.</p>
<p>I have read this thread all the way through, and have not once gotten the impression that Hunt or 07DAD are suggesting it is the responsibility of women to stop rape. To say that a woman should be responsible for the choices she makes is not tantamount to saying she is responsible for stopping rape. Nor is it tantamount to absolving male perpetrators of their responsibility. I have not heard either of these posters excuse bad behavior in men.</p>
<p>Hunt, your prior posts state that certain female dress is “risky”. I said that statement implies some responsibility on the victim in an assult. I have no problem reading and comprehending. I stand by my statement. You then state certain dress risks “unwanted attention”. Imo, that’s backpedaling. This thread is about assault and that is what we are talking about, not unwanted attention, which can be brought on by any number of things and is not on the same level as assault.</p>
<p>I have already established in prior posts that dress is NOT a factor in assaults. That is the reality whether you want to accept it or not.</p>
<p>“I’m not surprised that women, in particular, don’t like this reality, because it seems to me that there are more actions that women OUGHT to be free to do that in fact expose them to risk. That’s certainly not fair. But predators don’t consider fairness in choosing their targets.”</p>
<p>Now it seems you are again implying woman who dress a certain way are more vulnerable to assalt. </p>
<p>The reality is dress is NOT a factor in assault. That is a myth.</p>
<p>agree ohiomom—it’s one thing to say we are all responsible for thinking through our own actions, and being aware of situations that increase risks to our safety, which I do agree with, and instruct my d and two s’s however I do not think that a woman showing cleavage should be considered exhibiting risk taking behavior. if that were the case, we would see a whole lot of sexual assaults on beaches, where men and women are displaying much of their bodies.</p>
<p>While some of the comments about caution, responsibility, etc. are certainly reasonable, they take on a different context in this thread.</p>
<p>This thread is about a girl who has been sexually assaulted and sexually harassed. To discuss things like dress and poor decisions in the thread implies that the girl’s choices caused her to be assaulted. The reason that she was assaulted was because two boys assaulted her. End of story.</p>
<p>“But predators don’t consider fairness in choosing their targets.”</p>
<p>They also don’t consider dress.</p>
<p>"Myth: The victims ‘ask for it’ by their dress.</p>
<p>False - No one ‘asks’ to be assaulted. In addition, when most attackers decide to assault someone, how they are dressed is of little consequence."</p>
<p>I find it disturbing that things like dress and the POSSIBILITY of prior sexting, when no evidence of it has even been reported, come up in this thread and illustrates how victims continue to be blamed somehow for their assault in this day and age.</p>
<p>Deega123: In the case of Savannah Dietrich, her choices didn’t cause her to be sexually assaulted. But there’s no getting around the fact that it was imprudent of her to drink to the point that she was vulnerable to the depredations of those odious young men. Why should it be off limits to say that? I think those boys should have been harshly dealt with and should have received much worse punishment than they did. I also think Ms. Dietrich exercised very poor judgment on the night of her assault. It is possible to hold both of these ideas in one’s head at the same time.</p>
<p>I would be delighted to learn that, in fact, the way a woman dresses has no impact on her risk of being sexually assaulted, no matter where she might be. A statement from the NYC Detectives is not quite enough evidence to really show that this myth was debunked long ago. Has it? If so, great. I’d be particularly interested in knowing what behaviors, including clothing, affect risk of sexual assault in the context of aquaintance assault in colleges, parties, etc. As I said from the beginning, there is little question in my mind that clothing can affect the risk of being subjected to unwanted attention, including sexual comments. Does anybody disagree with this? In my first reference to this, I noted that the issue is a “hot potato.” I think I’ve proved that pretty clearly.</p>
Her choices exposed her to the risk of something bad happening. It could have been a number of different things–some of them involving the actions of opportunistic predators, some of them not (i.e., she could have choked and died after passing out). Her story is a crime story, and rightly so, but it is also a cautionary tale about the potential dangers of getting passing out drunk–in her case, she was victimized by people she thought were her friends as soon as she became vulnerable.</p>
<p>Gee Hunt, I guess those nuns who were raped in Serbia, El Salvador, etc were really dressing provacatibly. Your continueing to press this point in the way you do is disgusting to me, and makes it clear that we need more enforcement of sexual assualt laws.</p>
Is this supposed to be a persuasive comment? What does it prove? Nothing. I resent your suggestion that my comments “make it clear that we need more enforcement of sexual assault laws.” This is not the way to carry on a discussion of serious topics.</p>
<p>“As I said from the beginning, there is little question in my mind that clothing can affect the risk of being subjected to unwanted attention”</p>
<p>Unwanted attention can be brought on by an effervescent personality as well as numberous other things. Should a personality be surpressed so an not to risk unwanted attention? What about makeup?</p>
Well, what about it? If it in fact caused you to get more offensive comments from obnoxious men as you walk down the street, what would you do? You can choose to ignore the comments, or you can modify your behavior. In that case, the danger is, perhaps, mild enough that you might choose to do what you prefer and ignore the consequences. But that doesn’t alter the fact that your behavior affects your risks. For other behaviors–like getting passing out drunk at a party with a bunch of drunk teenage boys–the danger of something really bad happening is much greater.</p>
<p>Well Hunt, if we use your logic, we could say that the nuns exercised poor judgement because they choose to live in an unstable area. And their poor judgement caused them to be vulnerable to rape.</p>
<p>It is not brought up to blame HER. The discussion in this thread is not just about HER. It is discussed here because parents here feel that other young women–and men–need to take more seriously the risks involved with drinking to the point of semi-consciousness in social situations. </p>
<p>The BLAME for what happened to Savannah lies squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrators, and ONLY there.</p>
<p>Is this supposed to be a persuasive comment? What does it prove? Nothing. I resent your suggestion that my comments “make it clear that we need more enforcement of sexual assault laws.” This is not the way to carry on a discussion of serious topics. </p>
<hr>
<p>Hunt, if you did not understand, let me try again. Women get raped. Regardless of what they wear. Women have the right to wear short skirts, etc. I would like to see less rapes. I think that enforcement of the law would help. You would prefer we focus on how women dress.</p>
Isn’t this obviously true? They did choose to live in a dangerous area, and it did make them vulnerable to harm. That doesn’t excuse in the slightest the people who harmed them. I wouldn’t necessarily say that the nuns exercised “poor judgment,” though, because they may have made very serious and rational decisions to accept the risk of working in a dangerous area. But their decisions made them vulnerable to harm–this is true of all sorts of people who decide to work in high-crime areas.</p>
<p>
Of course they do. They also have the right to get drunk (if they are 21), to walk freely and alone on any street in the land, to arrange dates with strangers on the Internet, to leave the keys in the ignition, and lots of other things. Indeed, they have the right to decline to floss daily. All these things, however, come with greater or smaller risks of harm. You don’t think choice of clothing imposes a significant risk? That’s great, if it’s true.</p>
<p>Let me put it this way–and I suspect this is how some parents are reacting to this case–if you were advising your daughter on what steps to take to protect herself from the kind of harm that Savannah Dietrich experienced, what would you say? Surely you’d tell her not to get passing out drunk in such a situation? You might tell her not to drink the punch at a frat party, and not to take an open drink from somebody she doesn’t know, and to go to the party with friends, and not to go to a guy’s room alone, especially if she’s been drinking–Right? Would you have any advice on what she should or should not wear to such a party? Perhaps not, and perhaps it doesn’t matter. But surely we could all agree on some of these warnings?</p>
<p>“Well, what about it? If it in fact caused you to get more offensive comments from obnoxious men as you walk down the street, what would you do? You can choose to ignore the comments, or you can modify your behavior.”</p>
<p>Hunt, you seem to be suggesting a woman wearing makeup might actually receive more offensive comments from obnoxious men, and could therefore opt to forgo wearing makeup to reduce said comments. </p>
<p>question–how is a woman to know if it’s her makeup, her kneecaps, her blonde hair, her smile, her large but completely covered breasts??</p>