Savannah Dietrich case

Parent Cafe
501

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<p>Please don’t put words in my mouth. </p>

<p>I have been out of town for five days and can only get internet access sporadically with my cell phone. Most of the time I get nothing but that annoying little loading circle. I have not been able to read all of the posts here in the last few days, was skimming through them this morning and came upon the discussion about “reading comprehension.” I don’t advocate personal insults of any kind, but whether or not 07Dad was insulted has no bearing on whether or not it is uncivil to accuse educated adults of being unable to read.</p>

<p>The “you can’t read” thing is overused on this forum and is really only meant to insult. There are all kinds of ways to challenge someone’s interpretation or misinterpretation of one’s posts without going there. Obviously others disagree as often as that card is played on CC.</p>

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<p>OhioMom3000’s post #429:</p>

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<p>From the Pew website:</p>

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<p>The survey sample size (800), the age range (12-17) and date of research (June and Sept 2009) are confirmed on the Princeton website.
[Princeton</a> Survey Research Associates International](<a href=“http://www.psra.com/news.aspx?archive=true]Princeton”>PSRA.com is available at DomainMarket.com. Call 888-694-6735)</p>

<p>Is three year old 2009 data on a 800 sample of 6 different aged kids (some being 12 or 13 year olds) “better,” when discussing HS students’ habits in 2012?</p>

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<p>I don’t think the rate of teens’ sexting has anything to do with this case. Even if SD had sent a provocative photo of herself to a boyfriend in the past, this does not provide blanket protection for future individuals to take photos of her naked body without her consent, while she is clearly incapacitated and in the process of being sexually assaulted. I agree with a post further back in the thread pointing out that if the perps had believed they had the right to take these photos and distribute them because of past actions of SD, they would certainly have said as much in their statements. So the actual statistics on teen sexting in this case seem completely irrelevant here: there is no evidence that SD had ever sent such photos in the past, there is no evidence that the boys believed this to be the case, and even if it could be shown to have occurred at some time in the past, these actions do not constitute blanket consent for future photos to be taken and distributed without the victim’s knowledge. The victim had no capacity to consent to the acts performed on her by the boys, and there was no implicit consent to take and distribute photos.</p>

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<p>I agree. It’s irrelevant if the rate of teen sexting is 4% or 40%. Complete red herring.</p>

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<p>No question that this is true in a criminal prosecution. But the comments that started this line of posts had to do with suing the boys in a civil suit for damages for mental anguish/emotional distress.</p>

<p>pizzagirl–in a defense of these civil claims (mental anguish/emotional distress) it is not uncommon to mount a “try the plaintiff” defense. It can come in on damages.</p>

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So LasMa, your answer to this question is no, she doesn’t expose herself to any risk? I can certainly accept this answer, especially if there have been studies that show that it’s true. I would very much like it to be true. But I continue to think that it’s a reasonable question to ask. And here’s why: I know that there are studies showing that men and women interpret the “signal” given by clothing differently. You can look it up–men are more likely to interpret certain clothing choices as “seductive” whereas women are much less likely to interpret the same choices that way. Note: I’m not saying anything about how men SHOULD interpret clothing, but only how they–or at least many of them–do. If this difference doesn’t result in any risk to women, that’s good news.</p>

<p>Article (you can only see the abstract): <a href=“http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1987.tb00304.x/abstract[/url]”>http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1987.tb00304.x/abstract&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>07DAD, I think it is just as likely the %'s are used to hang the parents for not telling their boys not to do stuff like this, and to hold them as negligent.</p>

<p>I think public opinion is behind the girl right now. The boys attorney shot the moon, imho, in a gamble and ended up losing. </p>

<p>And I dont know what started the % stuff originally.</p>

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<p>“Is three year old 2009 data on a 800 sample of 6 different aged kids (some being 12 or 13 year olds) “better,” when discussing HS students’ habits in 2012?”</p>

<p>The sample is a better sample at least because it is a somewhat national sample from 3 cities across the country, if memory serves. It is from 2009, though, that is correct and that should be taken into account. However, it distinguished between 1. sending nude or near nude (4%) and 2. re-sending (15%). </p>

<p>This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, but I took issue with several statements 07dad made. This is one.</p>

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<p>I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the boy’s atty must have gotten approval from his family before he tried the tactic of trying to have Savannah charged with contempt.</p>

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<p>I certainly agree and I hope you weren’t trying to hang that one on me. As far as I’m concerned–and I thought I made it clear–the relevance of the sexting phenomenon among teens is only that it might explain why F&Z even THOUGHT of doing such a repulsive thing. It certainly doesn’t mitigate the offense!</p>

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<p>^^^^No, I wasn’t. The whole issue of statistics and how common this phenomenon may be was what brought that to mind.</p>

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<p>Consolation - </p>

<p>“I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the boy’s atty must have gotten approval from his family before he tried the tactic of trying to have Savannah charged with contempt.”</p>

<p>Even the attorneys I know who watched the actual tape of the judge issuing the confidentiality charge characterize the prosecutor as either incompetent or in cahoots. Given that, I can see the boy’s attorney overreaching.</p>

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<p>Hunt, the abstract states that women who wore more revealing clothing were perceived as being more sexy and seductive, not surprisingly. But once again:</p>

<p>Rape is NOT a crime of lust/sexual attraction/seduction. </p>

<p>Rapists are not looking for a date. They are looking for someone to control, degrade and humiliate.</p>

513

<p>I just want to say, after having been gone to work and come back, that the reason Hunt used the word “tricky” in the hot potato statement was because that was the word I had used in the previous post. So, it wasn’t a word choice Hunt just arrived at. The two of us were engaging in a conversation, which also included, I believe Kayf and Consolation, about the challenge of talking about this subject matter without it eventually “sounding bad” even when the main aim of the discussion of alcohol and risky behavior is to, if possible, prevent such incidents from happening.</p>

<p>It is one thng to discuss this in a vacuum, but another to discuss this as it relates to our own daughters. We need to be always teaching them how to stay safe, particularly as they go off to their first year away from home. In no way is Hunt a stand in for many who might be blaming a victim for her perpetrators behavior. Hunt is not an evil symbol, but a parent of a daughter, who gets to have worries and thoughts about how do we teach them to stay safe.</p>

<p>People have used words like “slut shaming” and other codified dialogue, but freedom of speech is important, and the ability to think outside the box on any subject matter, whether the box is invented by someone who does or does not think like you, is the ability to adapt and to make changes. </p>

<p>I don’t agree that what a young woman is wearing puts her at risk for rape. i do believe that how much a girl drinks in a given night, does. You are entitled to have a different opinion and to tell your daughters that no matter how much they drink, they are not at risk. I will tell mine something different. BTW, I also think that how much a boy drinks in a given night puts him at risk for all sorts of things, as well. Sad but true.</p>

<p><a href=“Brochures and Fact Sheets | National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA)”>http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I do not blame savannah for the rape. I think the courtroom treatment was appalling, and I don’t even think it was legal, even if it did occur in a courtroom, and I’m grateful she is strong enough to defend herself until she is heard. Good for her.</p>

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<p>Oh, and to get back to a different and, in this case, highly related question I posted earlier in the thread: </p>

<p>What are we teaching our boys?</p>

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<p>Well, on the subject of sex, I tried to convey that a sexual relationship should be undertaken in a context of mutual respect and affection. My S was raised in a feminist household and a UU church, both of which stressed the innate worth and dignity of every human being as a first principle.</p>

<p>As far as I can tell, it sank in. When S had an “official” GF in college–whom I liked very much–he said, explaining why he was drawn to her, “She’s very real.”</p>

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<p>What did I teach my son? Defensive living. Get to know the girl over time. See where she is in regard to sex. Go slow. Agree to get and exchange current STD etc. tests.</p>

<p>Make absolutely sure how old she is. No means no. Yes (or acquiescence) when not completely sober needs to be taken as no. Yes when sober may mean yes, but proceed with caution.</p>

<p>Don’t drink and do use protection even if she says you don’t need to because she is handling it. Be concerned if she says that.</p>

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<p>07DAD - Do you consider all of your advice defensive living? To me defensive implies that you are trying to protect yourself from others’ mistakes. But no means no is not defensive – that is telling your son to do the right thing.</p>

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<p>It is both and more. It is the law. It is the right thing to do. And, it is defensive taken in the context of all the advice. I told him that he should make no assumptions. So, he needed to make sure that he wasn’t in the situation of having to say “well, she acted like, or appeared to me to be OK with it.” It was the reverse of don’t ask, don’t tell. It was discuss, inquire, get it clear and expressed and be aware that being OK with having sex was not the total issue. "I’m not willing to do that to you (the male) or have you do that to me (the female) was also “no” and what the couple did during sex had to be determined and agreed to.</p>

<p>Another aspect of defensive living we discussed is as follows. It is an easy explanation about the legal and moral difference between the female saying “don’t stop” and “don’t, stop” in the process of sex after a clear “OK” by the female. I told him “don’t, stop” requires he stop immediately whatever it was that was going on. But, it is also not an easy explanation of when and how to determine when that actually was NOT a request to stop.</p>

<p>If you think that is a joke, it isn’t. I assume some female posters have some awareness of what they say/yell/moan during sex. It does not always sound like an “OK” even though it is. I told him this was an area to be very careful.</p>

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<p>She calims what the boys did was a violation of her rights. However she was drunk, which was her own decision, and.not in full possesiion of her conscious faculties. And therefore she can’t make much of a case.</p>

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<p>I totally agree with the court here. It was her decision to have all that booze at her party, and pass out.</p>