<p>People who rape can be good people who make a mistake. People who murder, too (usually second-degree, acquaintance murder.) Doesn’t make them any less rapists or murderers.</p>
<p>Also common on campuses are multiple rapists, who make it their business, often egged on by their “friends”, to rape drunken women.</p>
<p>I seem to recall that in earlier discussions of this topic, someone cited yet another study that suggested that the majority of campus rapes were committed by a minority of serial predators. If a man has that mindset, the binge drinking that goes on on campuses is going to provide him with a vast number of vulnerable targets. And, as yet another study pointed out, the most vulnerable are all too often the first year students who don’t have close friend networks and are new to drinking.</p>
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<p>I didn’t refer to any particular posts, rather some of the discussions in the thread. I didn’t follow the case either. I was amazed at how little I knew about marriage and relationships even though being married for decades. When I think of old fashioned marriage, Clintons come up. I remember some people suggested H divorce B at the time. Would H be better off taking that advice? Both are lawyers and I think both are happy now. Can our kids still find good partners in college these days that understand each other, willing to sacrifice, tolerate, and help one another out? I certainly hope so and that is unlikely to happen when they are drunk.</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang, I have no idea which parents of sons on this thread you are accusing. Did I miss some posts? (I believe that Hunt has a daughter…)</p>
<p>I’m accusing no one on this thread. But parents of sons on this thread and other threads have brought up the spectre of their son having intercourse with an enthusiastically consenting woman when both are drunk, only to have her accuse him of rape the next day because she changed her mind when she sobered up. </p>
<p>And I say, parents of sons should spend less time talking about that issue with their sons, and more time reminding their sons that men who are drunk are quite bad at distinguishing consent from lack of consent, and they should make sure they have their partner’s enthusiastic consent during sexual activity, at all times but particularly when they are drunk and their judgement is impaired. Less time talking about false rape accusations, and more time talking about avoiding unintentional rape through drunken misjudgement.</p>
<p>I say this because I have frequently read posts on CC from parents of sons, worrying about their sons being falsely accused of rape, and never read posts from parents who advise their sons that they might rape women when they are drunk and they should take steps not to do it.</p>
<p>^ As a parent, I had this worry when DS was in college. Luckily, as far as I know, he did not get drunk. He told us some girls (and boys also) often got very drunk even in parties in their dorm room. There are indeed some boys whose interests are to “get laid”. He rarely disaproves the behavior of his peers. But one person he dislikes is a boy whose interests is mostly in this area. (He used the word “meat head” to describe him, and said he was always trying to find his next “target.”)</p>
<p>DS once asked us why we do not drink. Our answer was we would rather not spend money on the drink. Buying and eating fresh produce from the grocery store is a better use of our money.</p>
<p>In other words, Cardinal Fang, you ARE accusing parents of boys on this thread, although in reality you are basing this on discussions in other threads months ago.</p>
<p>Consolation, In post #72, a person on this very thread said that she had had this very discussion with her son. I don’t want to mention names, because I don’t blame her (or any other poster on this thread). She is a person I respect, who brought up a subject that is frequently brought up.</p>
<p>I myself have a son. In advice to parents about what to tell their sons about sex, rarely are we advised to warn our sons that they might be rapists if they have drunken sex. But they might be rapists if they have drunken sex, and we should tell them that.</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang, I agree, I think that the boys don’t always realize they haven’t really gotten consent or easily misread signals when they are drunk. Sometimes I feel I may have overdone the message since as far as I can tell neither son has ever drunk liquor at all or had a girl friend. (or a boyfriend.)</p>
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<p>She said that this was a scenario presented in a CLASS her son was required to take! She wasn’t making it up as a strawman!!!</p>
<p>Consolation – it seemed to me that 07DAD presented the woman (particularly inebriated woman) changing her mind/unfairly claiming rape as the major issue and devoted much more time/space to that issue than to actual rape.</p>
<p>kayf– wrong.</p>
<p>I’m the anti-alcohol zealot, remember? Only sober sex. Alcohol is not involved. If my model is followed, there isn’t a non-sober male or a non-sober female.</p>
<p>Also, I have (repeatedly) stated that if there is alcohol involved, neither “yes” nor acquiescence is to be considered as consent to anything. So, if alcohol consumption (by either) has occurred, no sex, no misunderstandings, etc. My advice is just like “don’t drink and drive” –“don’t drink and have sex.” It’s easy. If you like or want to drive or have sex on a particular occasion, don’t drink.</p>
<p>My stated position was that sex should come within a committed relationship. That includes that the parties should wait until they have exchanged tests and have known each other long enough to be comfortable in discussing sex prior to engaging in it so that they have an express and sober understanding of each other on these issues. </p>
<p>I have never addressed “change of mind” other than to note that “no” means “no” at the immediate instance it is communicated. And, you are way off base suggesting that I’ve presented any woman as unfairly claiming rape. It’s a crime. It is never “unfair” to report a crime. </p>
<p>As others have been doing on this thread, if you have a post that you think does this, post the number.</p>
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I said I worry about this–and I do worry about it, whether it’s called rape or not. I agree that it’s unusual for this to be called rape, and even more unusual for a boy to be successfully prosecuted or disciplined for it. But I still don’t want this to happen to my daughter, which is why I warn her about drinking too much at parties. I don’t want her judgment to be impaired.</p>
<p>I also have a son, and I also worry about what might happen to him if he gets drunk and does something that he wouldn’t do if sober. The risk that he’ll be falsely accused of rape is actually pretty far down the list of things that worry me, though. I’d rank things like getting physically hurt, being responsible for an unwanted pregnancy, getting arrested, and others, as higher risks. I worry about these things for my daughter, too, of course.</p>
<p>Well, Hunt, I think that’s all that you can do. Honestly, I feel if the one boy’s father and mother, in the Savannah case, had spoken to him more often and more strongly about the law and about drunkeness, sex and consent, he would not have been involved in this case, at all. </p>
<p>the other one seems a bit like a sociopath and there’s not much that can be done, except that they tend to be able to follow “rules” that are strongly laid out, even if they don’t really care very much about anybody else’s feelings.</p>
<p>Regardless, it’s like drunk driving. The incidence of teen drunk driving goes down with increased parental conversation, increased awareness and increased education about the law and the potential consequences. I have to imagine that would potentially be the case here, as well.</p>
<p>One note about this: in warning your kids to avoid drinking to the point of impaired judgment, one is likely to highlight the most horrific possible consequences, even if they aren’t very likely.</p>
<p>My most horrific consequence from drinking: telling a boy I was secretly in love with that I was secretly in love with him. Not a good strategy for attracting a freshman! Like Wile E. Coyote, he left a four-limbed hole in the wall running away from me in terror…</p>
<p>It’d be pretty horrific to inadvertently rape someone.</p>
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While this is true, I think that young people may be more persuaded by horrific things that others might do to them than by things that they might do–they may find it hard to believe that they’d ever do those things. Perhaps the best practice is to try to scare them as much as possible with both kinds of potential consequences.</p>
<p>^ Good point, Hunt. </p>
<p>Almost everyone is overconfident in their abilities-- just try to find someone who will admit they’re a bad driver. ** And college-aged males are particularly so. So I guess it’d be hard to get a boy to admit that when he was drunk, he’d blunder on ahead, not noticing that the girl was completely uninterested, actually pushing him away or even totally unconscious. But if you think about other times when a young man is impulsive and oblivious, you can imagine that he’d be even more so when drunk and horny. And a young man is a LOT stronger physically than a young woman.</p>
<p>** except me. I’m not a good driver at all.</p>
<p>07DAD - what was your “defensive living” advice to your boys meant to include? Doesnt defensive living (as anaologous to defensive driving) mean avoiding a situation where through no fault of one’s own, one is damaged or suffers? If your boys were not at fault, weren’t you saying that a unfair rape charge could be an issue?</p>