<p>I really think you’re missing 07DAD’s point entirely, kayf. Whether drunk or sober, those boys committed a crime, a heinous crime. The drinking by all parties created an environment where the sexual assault was possible. Anyone interested in prevention of such assaults ought to think about how alcohol consumption contributed to creating the opportunity for the assault in this case and how it contributes in other cases. That is NOT an attempt to rationalize what those boys did while drunk or afterward.</p>
<p>ABS, I see it as an attempt to minimize what the Fey and Zehdner did, inlcuding 07DADs comments that none of this would have happened had their been no drinking, the judge did her job (yes, but I think poorly), comments re the parents likely have no civil liability, that the girl will be trashed in court.</p>
<p>Some of this may be true – but I still think it is an attempt to say, listen parents of girls, the criminal justice system will not support you if your DD is raped. Maybe he is right. I think it is time for change.</p>
<p>If a woman is drunk, they cannot legally consent to sex. So why should a male be held responsible for his sexual actions when he is drunk?</p>
<p>And yes I’m ready for the storm that I’m sure is coming…</p>
<p>“If this is stressed by all parents to children of both sexes, what happened in this case would not have happened. There would not have been a party without parents, underage drinking – and on and on and on. None of this would have gotten off the ground.”</p>
<p>I have to agree with kayf. Teens are going to make mistakes. I do not condone underage drinking. What F and Z did was more than a mistake! There is a HUGE difference between underage drinking and sexual assault. There is no excuse for the sexual assault and SD was not responsible for her assault. 07dad, some of your posts seem to imply otherwise. Even inserting “girls” into my posts implies it, imo. My post refers to males sexually assaulting females. Not that girls should not be taught about respect for the opposite sex, but that given is irrelevant to this discussion. It keeps coming back to the females with you, 07dad.</p>
<p>Hops, in this case, the woman was so drunk she had to be carried to her room. Do you not understand the difference between male still being able to walk, woman not? Are you aware of any documented rape where the woman appeared coherent, but was still drunk, and male was passed out?</p>
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<p>Let’s look outside this case…</p>
<p>Thank you OhioMom, Savannah’s parents may have been held responsible if Frey or Zehnder had gottien in an accident after drinking or had passed out or died from alchohol. Didnt happen.</p>
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<p>I understand the point you are trying to make (but I don’t agree), but people are being held responsible for many actions while being drunk (DUI, manslaughter, etc.).</p>
<p>Also, while you might argue that they are not responsible for their actions while being drunk, surely you will agree that they should be responsible for their actions when they were not drunk. Neither of the boys deleted the pictures immediately after sobering up and one of them continued showing the pictures long after the incident. To me this indicates that it did not matter that they were drunk during incident, they probably would have done the same even if they were not drunk.</p>
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<p>You’re really stretching to come up with fantastic interpretations. To say that none of this would have happened if F&Z hadn’t been drinking - which is potentially true, who knows? - does not “minimize sexual assault and pornography.” No one is saying sexual assault and pornography is (more justified / less justified) if the perpetrator is drinking. What part of “everyone on this thread objects strenuously to F&Z’s actions and finds them completely in the wrong” do you not get, kayf?</p>
<p>Hops, rape requires an affirmative act. Being raped does not.</p>
<p>To say that none of this would have happened if F&Z hadn’t been drinking - which is potentially true, who knows? - does not “minimize sexual assault and pornography.” </p>
<p>That may be before your opinion. I think it does.</p>
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<p>I would expect the criminal justice system to support my daughter in the event of rape or sexual assault. And you can bet the farm on my being a bulldog in the face of any prosecutor or defense attorney who tried to make it look like the sexual assault or rape was “her fault.” However, it is my sincere and heartfelt wish that we never, ever have to put that expectation to the test. If I advise my daughter to be prudent and avoid situations where such assaults are statistically more likely to occur, I am not thereby excusing anyone who might assault her. I am putting emphasis on the things that she has the power to control. </p>
<p>Savannah Dietrich had the power to decide not to drink past the point of consciousness. That doesn’t mean it was “her fault” that those boys violated her. It means that whatever else we can say about her (that she is courageous, for instance), we can also say that she acted imprudently on the night of her assault. It is possible to say that and still put the BLAME for the assault and for their actions after the night of the assault squarely on Frey and Zehnder. </p>
<p>With regard to OhioMom3000’s post #724, one post I’d like to call your attention to, if you’re willing to take a look, is 07DAD’s post #692, where he writes: </p>
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<p>And post #703, where he writes:</p>
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<p>I agree with all of the above. Had yet another discussion with D2 about things she needs to keep in mind at college in order to avoid becoming another statistic. She may get tired of hearing it, but that’s okay with me.</p>
<p>Its great that people are having conversations with their kids. I would feel better if the boys parents discussed what is legal, not just what is prudent. My guess is Mrs. Frey and Mrs. Zehnder wished they or their husbands had spoken to their kids about this.</p>
<p>Expecting kids to do what is prudent or moral is, imho, not always a reasonable expectation. Look at the percent of kids who admit to cheating. I think explaining to them that this is illegal, could be detrminental to their futures, and the parents may not be able to fix it can be more of a deterrent than saying not moral or prudent.</p>
<p>I found an interesting Department of Justice report, created as part of a series for educating police officers. You can find it here: <a href=“http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/pdf/e03021472.pdf[/url]”>http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/pdf/e03021472.pdf</a>. </p>
<p>A few observations:
- according to the report, “almost 25 percent of college women have been victims of rape or attempted rape since the age of 14.”
- The report talks at length about the role of alcohol.
- The report places most emphasis on prevention, not enforcement. Is this because the DOJ is soft on crime? I doubt it. Maybe it’s because, according to the report, “Law enforcement responses alone are seldom effective in reducing the problem.”</p>
<p>ABS - In response to the DOJ comment that "“Law enforcement responses alone are seldom effective in reducing the problem.” its hard for me to say, based on the Frey and Zehnder case that the DOJ is even trying to prosecute crimes against women. Yes, if they do not prosecute, it is unlikely their response will be effective.</p>
<h1>734</h1>
<p>If my sons refrained from outrageous behavior only because of fear of legal consequences or some sort of blemish on the permanent record, I would really feel I had failed as a parent.</p>
<p>If these young men had followed the golden rule, this never would have happened. Would they have wanted to be stripped, violated, photoed, and exposed on the internet? I doubt it.</p>
<p>I am not sure I believe these young men wouldn’t have assaulted someone, sometime, even if alcohol wasn’t impairing their judgement.</p>
<p>Alh, considering that Frey continued to distribute the pictures when he was presumably sober, it is hard to put this entirely on alchohol. </p>
<p>Maybe you might feel you have failed as a parent if you have to emphasize the law, and not just morality. But, imho, you will have failed more if your kid commits sexual assault.</p>
<p>“If a woman is drunk, they cannot legally consent to sex. So why should a male be held responsible for his sexual actions when he is drunk?”</p>
<p>Logic is faulty. Woman can’t be held liable for someone else’s actions done to her when she is drunk.</p>
<p>Kayf: I quoted from a report prepared as part of a series intended to help police figure out ways, working in concert with other community agencies, “to find effective solutions to the problem.” The report is more than 50 pages long and copiously sourced. I assume you’ve not looked at it.</p>