<p>I think that sometimes the “dream school” perception comes from us parents. I, for one, never even thought about applying to an ivy or elite school - my parents simply didn’t have the money, and if you didn’t have outside scholarships then there was no way (and our counselors back then didn’t really help with that, so no one really knew where or how to get them, unless your parents’ company gave them)…there was no FA like there is now. State of IL gave IL state scholarships based on ACT scores and need and I found a college that we could afford in IL. Was it the perfect fit? Not really. I received a good education, and enjoyed my time, but know that I would have preferred going out of state or to an elite school, not for prestige, but for their drive and more complete fulfillment of my academic ambitions. Now, with FA and many of those schools saying that they will fund your need, the doors have opened to the types of kids who would never have applied 20 years earlier. Only one student, our val, went out of state, to Vassar, and boy, was that a big deal! No one else even thought of that. But many parents now want more for their children than they had. And what has happened, is that because of FA, many are paying as much if not less than they would have at their state uni without FA. Knowing this does not apply to everyone, many parents want to brag about their child getting into one of the ivies or elites. The big problem is that in so doing, they think the way they did 20 years ago, where the val or sal, with high SAT or ACT would be accepted into an iby or elite if they could afford it. Now, with so many applying, there is no longer that feeling of certainty, and for many that is where the feeling of injustice comes from. The rules have changed, but people’s perceptions have not.</p>
<p>It is difficult to read through this without thinking that everyone who has a child who has worked very hard academically while juggling a myriad of activities with passion thinks their child is the only one out there who does that. The truth of the matter is that the most elite colleges are giving us the impression that they will not accept a student who has done less than that. We have been forced onto the treadmill, and we aren’t sure that it will ever change. He/she is into college–now, how do we make sure he/she gets into the “right” grad school, law school, med school…and on and on.</p>
<p>The point is not about the student athlete who has the academic prowess and achievement getting into the elite school (and that was their “hook”, just like another student using their oboe “hook” at another school, etc.) It is about the athlete who has significantly lower SAT’s, grades, etc. getting in. We know more than a few, and it is difficult to swallow. But I also believe that they are not in competition with the truly academic students. They are in competition with the other athletes who are looking to be admitted–the ones that the coaches have told the Adcoms they are very much interested in. There are x number of spots set aside for those kids, and it has little, if any, effect on the rest of the applicant’s chances. The school simply has a class puzzle to put together, and the athletes are some of the pieces that have to fit into it for them to have their “perfect” class.</p>
<p>I can only wonder why a student athlete would want to attend a school where they undoubtedly will have academic difficulty, but…a degree from HYPS does not have your class rank printed on it.</p>
<p>I was not fortunate enough to even be allowed to apply to the school I most wanted for financial reasons, and it has worked out so beautifully for me. The schools our children go to in the fall (Andi’s S, too–we know he will be getting off a waitlist!!!) will work out beautifully for them, too!!!</p>
<p>
You hit that one right on the head, irish! It’s so difficult to assess where our own children stand in comparison to other involved, honored and academically successful kids from their own schools, let alone the national applicant pool. </p>
<p>I’m always surprised, for instance, when I hear folks on CC describe students from their child’s hs as less involved in ECs. Maybe we can have an impression about other kids, but how can we really know? A student may be deeply involved in activities that don’t register on the high school radar screen (church, job, individual sport, dance, off-campus volunteer work, etc.). We’re always filtering those impressions through our own value systems, as well: folks who are into sports may be well aware of the talent and effort shown by hs athletes, but less impressed by those qualities in a musician; people whose kids are completely into the arts may not really value athletics as much. (To those parents whose kids have distinguished themselves in both fields, I can only say - amazing!) </p>
<p>I was actually once told by an apparently otherwise intelligent mom that kids who didn’t do sports in our school system are “no one” - and yes, she knew full well that my kids pursued the arts instead. (And yes, I avoid her now.) My favorite was the mom who argued for a prime spot for her child in the school parking lot because he was a 3-sport athlete who contributed more to the school than the kids who “just left” at 3:00 each day. Couldn’t help thinking - if he’s such an athlete, why can’t he walk to the far side of the parking lot?</p>
<p>I like dmd77 s point.</p>
<p>I always feel like telling parents who are seeing their kids’ athletic abilitites as a lever for admissions or scholarships that its much easier overall to get good grades and high scores than it is to be an (even an ivy) recruited athlete. And if they can’t play the sport at the college level (read all-state in the smaller states), its not regarded much better than being in FFA or Key Club.</p>
<p>“I can only wonder why a student athlete would want to attend a school where they undoubtedly will have academic difficulty, but…a degree from HYPS does not have your class rank printed on it.”</p>
<p>As an Ivy grad and as a person who has never been athletic and whose kids are not athletes either, I can honestly say that I did not see any athletes at Harvard who were struggling in their classes any more than anyone else was. And, frankly, most students weren’t struggling anyway.</p>
<p>Colleges like Ivies simply do not accept students who lack the ability to graduate from their colleges. Whether these are athletes, URMs, legacies, wealthy donor’s kids, the students who are accepted by such colleges have the intellect and other abilities to get their degrees. </p>
<p>There is a very wide range of SAT scores that indicate students can be successful at places like Ivies. The bottom qualifying scores on the new SAT probably is a minimum of 600 on all parts of the SAT. The bottom gpa is 3.0. Very few people come in with stats that low. Those who do have other things compensating that indicate that they definitely can handle the work.</p>
<p>I have seen athletes, including recruited ones, and I have seen URMs with scores exceeding 1500 who were rejected by Ivies. </p>
<p>Students do not need to have 1590 scores and a 4.95 average in order to be able to graduate from a place like HPY.</p>
<p>I also agree with the parents who say that the physical demands of athletics makes that a more difficult EC to do than are many other ECs even when students are as devoted to their ECs as athletes are to theirs.</p>
<p>When I talk to the student athletes that I know, my jaw drops at the hours they put in daily for their sports. I also am amazed at how they have to handle things like injuries and travel.</p>
<p>Their ECs take the mental energy, too, that more cerebral ECs do.</p>
<p>Marite – thanks for the clarification and answer to my question!</p>
<p>MotherofTwo, don’t worry, I know you were not diminishing anything here at our school or with my kids. </p>
<p>Our school is obviously much smaller than yours. Also we don’t have marching band so conceivably you can be in band or play instruments and do sports (not that this was easy but my kid did it). Here, indeed there are kids who play one sport year round and do it at elite levels like travel soccer leagues and ASA softball in summer, etc. etc. And so we have that too but it is possible here to play more than one sport. It was going to be hard for my D on varsity softball (she’d have made it on though) because that particular coach also coached ASA in summer and a good majority of the team played that in summer and she went away in summers to a performing arts camp. So, here you can make the team if you have the skill but there are kids like you mention here too who specialize in one sport. But we do have three sport athletes and so that is also possible here, as with my own kid. And like where you are, we have some coaches or music directors who are very very upset if you ever have a legitimate conflict. And there are some who are more understanding with advance notice and when it is legitimate (like having to attend All States…the tennis coach would not WANT my daughter to miss that as it is for a class at school and also an honor but other coaches would be very upset by it). We even have these issues WITHIN a certain domain. Like I have one child immersed in many aspects of the performing arts. It is an issue with certain dance teachers when my D is in musical theater productions and there are conflicts but she takes dance year round and needs it for her training but also needs to do theater productions because she is going to college for professional degree programs in musical theater. People get territorial and sometimes do not look at the bigger picture. I can say that this year my D’s ballet teacher finally was more understanding because she knows my D takes ballet for her training but also must be in productions because these are pieces of her puzzle to get to her goals in college and beyond, and she is not aiming to be a ballerina. So, she was not as bent out of shape this year when my D had to take a leave of certain ballet classes to be in a theater production and then rejoined the class and is a dedicated member (unfortunately now due to my D’s serious car accident she is out of all the dance productions and her parts have been given over to others, life happens). So, conflicts exist in busy little lives. We try to be fair and dedicated and responsible but these conflicts arise all the time. We are not packaging our kids up for college. Our kids love their activities and have done them their whole lives and don’t want to give up these passions. Somehow they’ve made it work. Right now, I have gone from a child who is busy 24/7 who is now out of all her ECs just about due to her accident. It is to the opposite extreme at our house at the moment. </p>
<p>I agree with Northstarmom about the hours that athletes and kids in other heavy duty ECs put into their activities. I know someone said if your child is not a recruited athlete (and mine was not), that athletics are not going to look much better on a college resume than Key Club (we don’t have Key Club here but going with that example)…and my response is two fold…my kids could care less what looked good to colleges…they did activities that they wanted to do cause they love these activities…Secondly, I believe it is not as important WHAT the EC endeavor is as much as that there was a long term commitment and passion, significant time spent on the endeavor, achievements gained, leadership, and so forth. In THAT vein, even if an athlete were not to make the college varsity team in their sport, the adcoms would look favorably upon students who were engaged in a passion and devoted over a long period of time (not just an hour per week like some clubs I have read about on CC…though our school does not have all these clubs like I read about here…the bigger ECs tend to be sports, the arts, jobs here), and so in that way, a sport would be seen as a significant contribution outside the classroom, just like any other thing like that such as a theater production. I even think adcoms would look favorably at kids who can juggle academics and excel while at the same time being heavily engaged in interests outside academics…be it sports, arts, debate, work (my D had a part time job as well and many kids here have those). </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>In defense of athletes, (I am writing under my son’s login name), my son was not accepted as an athlete, but he was an all state soccer player, along with a 4.0 average and editor of the literary magazine. I have been told by guidance people that evidence of athletic success demonstates committment and discipline that colleges look for. Even if athletes don’t have perfect grades or SAT scores, they have demonstated that they can stick with something and excel.
Also, it is a crap shoot! Apply to places you feel comfortable, including socalled “backup schools”. If you aren’t comfortable and excited about the backup school, perhaps you shouldn’t be attending. The backup schools these children are applying to are usually elite state schools that many other students would love to attend!
My s was accepted at Stanford, Duke, Columbia, Penn, U of Chicago and U of Wisconsin Madison. Waitlisted at Wash U and rejected at Harvard and Brown. Who knows what they are looking for?</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I wouldn’t say it’s exactly easier. Both are a LOT of work. I’d say that, done properly, academics are a surer route to success (not quite the same as “easier”) than athletics and are less dependent on natural talent. Hard work can make almost anyone , except the mentally disabled, an academic success. But if you haven’t got the talent, there is no amont of work in the world that can make you run a 4 minute mile.</p>
<p>Last year, I was approached by a student to write a rec for her to H. I don’t teach the normal subject for writing recs, so I was surprised. (She didn’t even take the Ap test im my subject area, because she didn’t think she could score high enough to make it worthwhile). I think it’s because her core teachers ( all 4 years worth, math, science or English) hemmed and hawed about it, that she asked me. I felt sorry for her, and wrote a lackluster letter (better than none at all). It was so lackluster it would take a blind adcom not to realize it. She was being recruited due to athletics. None of her teachers thought she was H material, but she is there now. Hangs out only with the students on her team. Her sibling is also an athlete and plans on going to H also. This time I will refuse sending a letter. (Better stats, but difficult personality). None of the teachers think the sibling is H material, either. Both are above average, but not stellar, serious students. Each tried to beat the grading system and did just enough. With them, H is all prestige. This has gotten around the school, district and area. When looking at stats as to where the students were accepted from our school, what is said is “and then there was the one H admission, but…” it is being totally discounted. No one considers it in our stats. H’s rep has been tarnished in our area. Because of this, people don’t think it is that elite.</p>
<p>oddly enough this same tarnished rep is the same that a native bostonian related to me when I visited</p>
<p>she thought that harvard’s prestige was dying down because they recruit too much on athletics</p>
<p>Northstarmom–I know that many athletes do very well academically because they are used to the juggling act. But we do know of several who are at Ivies as recruited athletes, and are definitely struggling with their courses because they were never hard-working students in hs. Those were the ones to whom I was referring.</p>
<p>Northstarmom: “Ivies. The bottom qualifying scores on the new SAT probably is a minimum of 600 on all parts of the SAT. The bottom gpa is 3.0. Very few people come in with stats that low.”</p>
<p>The Ivy League accepts quite a few students below 600:</p>
<p>Information from 2003 Common Data Sets:
Below 600 V, Below 600 M</p>
<p>Dartmouth:
9% V, 8% M
<a href=“This Page Has Moved”>This Page Has Moved;
<p>Cornell:
14% V, 8% M
<a href=“http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_2003-04.pdf[/url]”>http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_2003-04.pdf</a></p>
<p>Princeton:
4% V, 2% M
<a href=“http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2003.pdf[/url]”>http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2003.pdf</a></p>
<p>Dizzymom,
glad to change spots with you. Your duties at my house include working a fulltime job, and helping my son care for my 88 year old father who is blind and confined to a wheelchair. You would have had to help with the frail and diabetic grandmother last year. No athletics, but plenty of elder care, science olympiad, drama, physics club, academic team, robotics, chemistry olympiad (nationals), envirothon, mentoring, chem lab aid. </p>
<p>My son didn’t bother applying to the ivies. He can look at numbers as well as anyone. Not a lot of slots for kids like him.</p>
<p>In most schools, you do not ask a teacher to write a rec for HPY. You get a rec for colleges. Those who cannot come up with a positive rec advocating the student should decline the request as it is considered very bad form for to send a lacklustre rec. I know some adcoms who have told me that. It is up to the school gc to come up with a rec that gives more of a picture as to how the student fits in relationship to the rest of the school.</p>
<p>I don’t see Harvard’s rec being tarninshed by its athletic acceptances anywhere, and the stats do not show this at all. The line to get is as long as ever. All of the schools take in kids who fit what they feel the school can use to make it a more vibrant community. Athletes fall into that category. And, yes, they do tend to stick with each other, because it is a very difficutl and timeconsuming thing to be a college athlete. I would expect that they would do so. At Yale, many of the teams eat together and plan many events together. At many performing arts programs you see this too, where the students in those programs do not tend to mingle much with the rest of the students.</p>
<p>Horemsis:</p>
<p>Here is the most recent Data:</p>
<p>Information from 2004 Common Data Sets:
Below 600 V, Below 600 M</p>
<p>Dartmouth </p>
<p>7.3% V 5.7%M</p>
<p><a href=“This Page Has Moved”>This Page Has Moved;
<p>Princeton</p>
<p>4% V 2% M
<a href=“http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf[/url]”>http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf</a></p>
<p>Cornell</p>
<p>12V 6% M</p>
<p><a href=“http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf[/url]”>http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf</a></p>
<p>sybbie,
do you know if the V includes internationals that also took the TOEFFL’s?</p>
<p>Hi Ohio_mom</p>
<p>According to the Common Data Set the ** Freshman Profile **provides percentages for ** ALL enrolled, degree-seeking, full-time and part-time, first-time, first-year (freshman) students ** enrolled in fall 2004, including students who began studies during summer, international students/nonresident aliens, and students admitted under special arrangements.</p>
<p>** Percent and number of first-time, first-year (freshman) students enrolled in fall 2004 who submitted national standardized (SAT/ACT) test scores. Include information for ALL enrolled, degree-seeking, first-time, first-year (freshman) students who submitted test scores.</p>
<p>** Do not include partial test scores (e.g., mathematics scores but not verbal for a category of students) or combine other standardized test results (such as TOEFL) in this item. SAT scores should be recentered scores. The 25th percentile is the score that 25 percent scored at or below; the 75th percentile score is the one that 25 percent scored at or above.</p>
<p>Thanks!
So the percentages below 600 really are very small, since I think the ivies require the testing. And we certainly don’t need to assume they are athletes - could be celebrities!</p>
<p>Sybbie: Yes, I included 2003 data sets instead of the 2004 because many schools don’t have the 2004 available yet for those looking to compare.</p>
<p>For instance, Northwestern and Berkeley only have 2003 common data sets available:
Below 600 V, Below 600 M</p>
<p>Northwestern:
9% V, 6% M
<a href=“http://ugadm.northwestern.edu/commondata/2003-04/c.htm[/url]”>http://ugadm.northwestern.edu/commondata/2003-04/c.htm</a></p>
<p>Berkeley:
33% V, 20% M
<a href=“http://cds.vcbf.berkeley.edu/content.cfm?formyears=2003-2004§ion=c[/url]”>http://cds.vcbf.berkeley.edu/content.cfm?formyears=2003-2004§ion=c</a></p>
<p>That’s why I used the 2003 for the Ivys (since most schools improved in 2004):</p>
<p>Dartmouth:
9% V, 8% M
(7% V, 6% M 2004)</p>
<p>Cornell:
14% V, 8% M
(12% V, 6% M 2004)</p>
<p>Princeton:
4% V, 2% M
(4% V, 2% M 2004)</p>