<p>ohio_mom, a pat on the back to you for caring for your folks; that is such a hard job. My mom was busier with her mom than I was with three babies.</p>
<p>Thanks, SBmom. I know that my son has gained in character and empathy from the experience. Some of his schools - including his first choice - must have seen that.</p>
<p>My son, a junior, is a good student in disciplines requiring verbal ability, mainly English and Social Studies, but he is on the verge of failing pre-Calc and has at least one failing semester in Chemistry. (He managed to pass only with the help of a tutor.)He wants to major in Political Science. He is in AP History (but with only a B average in it) and Honors English (AP English is only by invitation and is not offered all 4 years). He took the practice New SAT w/ Kaplan early spirng and did a 720 verbal and 620 math. I know his verbal can get bumped up a notch, but we are worrying about whether to bother with the math because if the math score is too high, it will look like he’s a slacker, and instead of like a kid for whom math is just not a strength. Also, from what I’ve heard, the admissions departments don’t care much about SATs anymore, just transcripts, so once they see his grades, he’s probably done anyway, except for third tier and state schools.</p>
<p>However, he is interested in some better schools, particularly Brandeis, which he is very excited about because of their commitment to social justice and their poli-sci program. He’s also interested in Grinnell and Wheaton (Mass. not Illinois). Is he wasting his time pursuing anything that doesn’t have more than a 50% acceptance rate?</p>
<p>He only has a couple of ECs, primarily 3 years in Youth and Government, throught the YMCA, which hosts a mock state legislature at the state capitol every year. He has done some traveling abroad and mission work with his church, as well. No athletics or band.</p>
<p>After reading the post about how kids with 1500s and 4.0s, tons of ECs, are rejected, what are my kid’s chances? This is a very bright kid whom I would hate to see consigned to a state school or a community college. Even some of the state schools are quite selective now. However, he could probably succeed in a better school once he can focus on something he really has a passion and a gift for. Also, could a strategy be to get him into the best third tier or state school possible and if he really excels there, he can transfer to a better school sophomore year?</p>
<ol>
<li> Parent Robert–Get thee S to a Calculus Tutor!</li>
</ol>
<p>Calculus isone of those subjects that can get a big boost from one-on-one tutoring. Calculus tutors can boost understanding and confidence. Invaluable! Don’t let that F or D ruin an otehrwise good record!!</p>
<ol>
<li> Then, look in the CC archives for Xiggi’s tips on how to raise the SAT Math score. Even 50 to 75 points would be huge for your S.</li>
</ol>
<p>Don’t discount some of those schools that focus on your son’s strengths , such as American. They won’t care about the math so much. Look to see which schools don’t have cores , which allow your son to create his own educational experience - no math. And if the state school is that selective, then it is a wonderful school - there have been many posts on that subject here, and many state schools have programs equal to or superior to others in certain areas. Don’t discount them.</p>
<p>I would say to try for a few in the Brandeis/Grinnell tier, and work also on finding good “clone” schools that would make your S happy but not be quite as selective. Beloit, for example. Look at schools that don’t get many applicants from your state.</p>
<p>My D struggled with calc and has finally conquered it because she now attends the class 2 times per day. Reinforcement really helped her get it.</p>
<p>ParentRobert, Your son will be fine. He should not be relegated to third tier schools and state schools (and nothing wrong with those either!). You didn’t say anything about your son’s GPA or the type of curriculum he’s taken. If he has a strong GPA (say above 3.5) and a strong curriculum (4 years math, 4 years science, etc.) he should do well with those test scores. Even if his GPA is somewhat lower but above 3.0 he will have plenty of fine options. The truth is that many schools, especially liberal arts colleges, have a somewhat skewed male-female ratio and are thus have slightly higher admit rates for males than the overall admit rate listed in guidebooks. Wheaton in Mass. is an excellent example of this - their overall admit percentages for males is higher than for females. In fact, I’d be comfortable calling Wheaton a solid match and possibly even a safety for your son, depending on his grades. Tip: if you see schools that have wildly skewed male-female ratios (i.e., 65-35 or above), it’s a safe bet that males will receive somewhat preferential treatment in the admissions office. Don’t take this to mean, however, that he should ONLY apply to reach schools — everyone needs some matches, good bets and reach schools!</p>
<p>I would suggest starting with schools in the top of the second tier or bottom of the first tier of the US News & World Report. Identify 4-5 matches and safeties in that area of selectivity and then add in reach schools. I would also suggest that he consider looking outside of the northeast — there are many schools in the midwest, south and west that are excellent admissions values — their acceptance rates bely the quality of education they provide. </p>
<p>Don’t get taken in in terms of believing that selectivity is the only indication of quality. It doesn’t always hold true and there actually ARE some great schools that have relatively high acceptance rates. Just one example is Beloit in Wisconsin, which has already been mentioned. Excellent school, enthusiastic faculty, a place where someone like your son could truly shine and get an excellent education…yet their acceptance rate is well above 50%. Another school that sounds like it might fit your son is Earlham in Indiana – it is a quaker school with an extremely STRONG committment to social issues and social justice, incredibly caring faculty, and very serious students. St. Olaf in Minnesota has a more conservative student body but also is dedicated to social issues and has amazing study abroad opportunities that would certainly be of interest to a political science major. But there are other schools out there as well. As I said, I’d suggest starting with possible safeties and matches and working your way up to the reaches.</p>
<p>A good book that is not often on the bookshelves in bookstores is Loren Pope’s Colleges that Change Lives. He also has another book, Beyond the Ivy League that I recommend. You can order them both from Amazon. Both are great starting points to find schools that may not be on everyone’s radar but may fit your son and his interests.</p>
<p>“This is a very bright kid whom I would hate to see CONSIGNED to a state school or a community college.”
“He should not be RELEGATED to third tier schools and state schools (and nothing wrong with those either!).” (How can there be “nothing wrong” if you’re being “relegated”? Doublespeak!!)</p>
<p>Strong words, folks. And offensive to those of us whose seniors have chosen a state school; in my S’scase, OVER private schools that accepted him and offered him scholarships. Elitism is alive and well!</p>
<p>tabbyzmom, Good point and I agree that “consigned” and “relegated” could be perceived as condescending, but I’d have to add that it depends on the state. I was blessed to have the University of Michigan in my home state, but others may be less geographically lucky. There are 50 states and their higher (and lower for that matter) educational systems are not all created equal.</p>
<p>Agreed, t–zmom and m–rath…P-Robert, please don’t disregard your state school system…most offer a very fine education at a very reasonable price in many areas of study. The 3 state systems I have good knowledge of are all very, very good…and, were it not for some great merit awards, both my children would be there now - and would be quite at home there.</p>
<p>“This is a very bright kid whom I would hate to see consigned to a state school or a community college”</p>
<p>Welcome to CC where all the children are above average its just the administrators and test givers that seem confused. The state school could be a perfect fit for your child so I would control your attitude and write down five positive things about these valuable institutions to think about the next time you are tempted to disregard them.</p>
<p>If a student is getting failing grades and a b in his best subject, how is he going to do when he gets to college…that is the question on admission officers minds. Don’t glad hand him into a pile of rejection letters. Take an honest look at what colleges are accepting and discuss it with him, have his counselor discuss it with him… There are summer community college classes to be taken that can demonstrate a turn around…but don’t think that just because you see his greatness that others will see it above kids who out score him. Tough love in the academic world.</p>
<p>Parent R</p>
<p>Get the guidance counselors admissions book, copy as much info as you can from the schools students applied to last year (our book lists, by school, a single line for each applicant, anonymously. It shows GPA, SAT, application type [reg or early] and result A, R, WL.) after you spend an hour or so doing that, you’ll have a good database begninning. GO home and type it into excel, and re-sort it by GPA, and you’ll get a ranking of all the kids in the universe of colleges you selected, and their admissions results. Look at the ones whose grade averages are about 5-6% of the class above and below you to get a total range of about 10-12% of the class around the point where your sons grades place him. Now look carefully at (and make a separate list of) the schools that accepted those kids, and the ones that rejected them. That will tell you what type of school your son is going to attend, if not the specific school. Pay attention to the board scores of the students in his GPA range. If their boards are generally higher than your son’s you need to look somewhat lower in the GPA range to get the proper target “sighted in”. If the scores are lower, you can look up the list a little further. No reason you can’t shoot higher, but save some bullets for the ones that are hittable. This sounds tedious and obsessive, but IMO its one heckofa lot more objective and informative than anything else you can do or anyone you can listen to. If you do it beginning now, you can get the data for the last years applying class, and next fall when this years data come out, you’ll have two years of the most recent data. It will make you more informed than the counselor, probably. </p>
<p>The transfer strategy is very doable, but I don’t like what it says to the student about what you think about him, and the “second-class” way it will make him feel about his available first choice. Let that idea come from him, or be set out very softly. My 2 cents.</p>
<p>I don’t think the boy should go to a cc or state school simply because he seems to be the type of kid that needs some extra attention and nurturing in order to make the next step academically. It seems to me that he needs to learn study skills, note taking and somehow become more academically motivated. In my experience, this is not likely to happen in a large state school or in a community college. So I really am not focusing on this “very bright” description, but on what I see as this kid’s needs in order to succeed in college. He looks to me like the very picture of my friend’s son who did succeed in a small, private LAC. Both parents were big state school advocates as they were successful and happy graduates of such schools and their daughter was doing well at one. They had proclaimed loud and clearly that it was a waste of money to send a kid to one of these expensive private schools. Though the boy probably could have squeeked into the flagship state school, and certainly could have gone to some of the nex tier state schools, the parents were wise enough to understand that cc or any of those schools were not the best fit for him, and payed the price of a small, nurturing college that really gave the kid the boost he needed to make the next step up. That is what I feel Parent R’s son needs. Neither Brandeis, American, nor Grinnell would fit that profile, however. Wheaton, Goucher, Bennington, Susquehanna, Ursinus, those sort of schools just might, and I am just listing east coast schools. I think Carolyn’s suggestion of the Loren Pope schools is an excellent one. Also for senior year, the young man should take a step back and work on getting good grades on non AP subjects. Forget the Calculus; look for a good fourth year college math course that reviews Precalc, most schools have them under some title or other, and the object should be mastering the material, organizing it, taking notes and getting top grades. Clearly, the young man is not performing according to his board scores, and that needs to be addressed. as the scores are irrelevant once he gets into college; those study and learning skills become imperative. Both of my girls have lower SAT scores, but with their strong study and organizational skills, were able to match their outstanding highschool grades with sterling college grades. </p>
<p>I happen to believe that state schools, particularly the flagship ones, are not for those who are not self motivated and self disciplined. I would not hesitate to recommend our state school to top students with top stats; I would not recommend to anyone who can maybe squeeze in.</p>
<p>Remember that some state schools are a heck of a lot better than others, folks. Also, if ParentRobert’s S does not make the GPA cuttoff for Honors College at said state Uni it makes it a lot less attractive. </p>
<p>ParentRobert,
my S was accepted at UChicago - not in the top 10% of Podunk HS. It can be done - will write more or PM you when I have a little time.</p>
<p>I know a student who has a learning disability, and is given special attention and assistance at Penn State (main campus, but not the honors college). It might be a good idea to check on the resources available at any college under consideration. I don’t believe small school necessarily = adequate and appropriate support.</p>
<p>There is the other thought that not everybody should be in college directly out of high school. Some people gain an advantage with maturity and work experience. Neither work nor community college are “failure” options, they are merely alternatives and for some the best choice they could make.</p>
<p>Part of the decision process that a student goes through is deciding how much work, what level of interest, and to which priority do they devote their energy and time. As parents (and teachers) we can encourage what we think are best decisions, but we might be wrong. I wonder how many people 30 years ago would have told Bill Gates to stay in school and get a job with a good company like Montgomery Ward after graduation.</p>
<p>Kids give us hints all the time about what and how they want to approach life and in the middle of all of our encouragement we need to listen to their words and observe their actions to understand where they are in the process. Include a reach school or two, but make sure there are safeties at the base of the application pyramid.</p>
<p>Thanks for all your advice. I apologize for any terminology denigrating state schools. We are in Massachusetts, and UMass Amherst is a good school, but too big for him – we feel he might just get lost there. The other state schools in MA are just OK, except for ULowell, which is good for engineering and science, definitely not his thing. We are also looking into UVT, which we liked very much and is more of a mid-sized school with a small school feel.</p>
<p>His GPA is about a 3.2, and the B-B+ average in his best subject is in an AP course, not regular course. He gets B+ to As in English, foreign language, and usually history, except for this year, now that he is in AP.</p>
<p>Having him take a year off does not sound like a good option. Academically, he does well, except in math and sciences with a math component. He does not currently have a job, although he might have some summer work at a local camp. For him to sit around for a year or work at , or go to a community college. I could see him becoming very directionless just sitting at home, or at a 2-year college with students who don’t match him academically.</p>
<p>This is really important advice for anyone to take to the prospective applicant in your own house or down the block. In our case, my D’s teachers suggested that she apply to college A and college B, stating that she would not fit in as well at college C (a slightly less rigorous college, with a very local atmosphere) since she would not be challenged and she had a broader world view than the typical student at college C. Well…you know what happened. College C accepted her; colleges A & B waitlisted her, and I don’t think her chances are good that she will get into either one. So she is convinced that she does not fit in to college C and will not have a good educational experience. I think it is very important to apply to safeties with which one feels very comfortable, because, competitive as the admissions process is getting for good LACs (not necessarily the top LACs) one might find that the competition has outstripped students who seemed to be well-suited and well-prepared for those colleges only a few years ago.</p>
<p>The whole trick in picking colleges is to have a few colleges where you know you can get in, AND where you can fit in. I know some unhappy kids who are left with a safety just tacked on the list with no thought of ever attending it. That’s why sometimes a few safeties with some variety makes for a better ending even if you don’t get into your top choices. But that does increase the number of schools on the list.</p>
<p>First, if you haven’t visited UMass-North Dartmouth, don’t write it off too quickly. You can’t judge the school solely by “stats,” especially in this case, since a fair number of kids are immigrants themselves. (Last time I checked, median math SAT was higher than verbal.) It’s a nice campus. A lot of “South Coast” kids go there because their parents want to avoid “ZooMass.” (Please, any UMass-Amherst, folk, don’t flame me–it’s just a common nickname.) </p>
<p>Another state school I like is North Adams State. I think it’s now known as Mass College of Liberal Arts. If you haven’t checked it out, do so. </p>
<p>I’m not saying these are his only options–they definitely aren’t. However, they could be good safeties.</p>