<p>I think your son has a shot at UVM actually as far as the GPA and SAT scores go. But remember, there is more to an applicant besides numbers. If he can achieve or do something significant outside the classroom…an independent study, an internship, a summer experience, something around an interest area…he needs to be more than these numbers. These numbers ARE in the ballpark for UVM. I also think it is worth tutoring in math or doing something about the failing grade. A C is one thing, but below that really sticks out, particularly in junior year. Otherwise, his GPA and his SATs are within range of many schools. </p>
<p>ParentR,
ditto the advice on working on the math grades - that is more important than a few SAT points. </p>
<p>My son liked Brandeis a good deal, so another of his choices, Allegheny College in Erie PA, might be appealing to your son as well. It’s an interesting place, they do a lot of community service, and allow students to develop their own minors. Merit aid is SAT based, and began at 1300 old SAT last year!</p>
<p>This post applies to me more than you could probably imagine. My thing though was that when i told people where I wanted to go, it wasn’t unless they asked. And yes, I had some confidence in my app but I did always say yea… itd be awesome but it’s really rough to get in… heck I’m not done yet but this rings a sad bell to me.</p>
<p>I’m new here. And I admit I did not read this entire thread, though I read a lot of it. Finally decided I would like to share. (I’ll tell you up front I don’t have any advice Anyway, we live in NC and my daughter applied ED to Pomona in 2002 (entering fall of 2003). It was a calculated strategy, as she had some interest in Brown. But after a lot of research and talking with Brown finaid officers, I was pretty sure she’d be considered more on an individual basis with Pomona finaid. She got in and was elated, and freshman and sophomore years got +$32,000 grants. However, she has been miserably homesick and depressed at Pomona, and is transferring to UNC-Chapel Hill for her junior year. I hope she will be happy there but maybe she’ll just be depressed wherever; but at least she won’t be homesick. I am sooo glad she didn’t go the Brown route–apart from the fact that she most likely wouldn’t have gotten enough aid, I think she would have felt even more lost there. If there is a moral to this story, I’m not sure what it is, unless it’s that a lot of times the kids think they know what they want, and they give their heart to a school, the way my D did to Pomona, and then what they thought they wanted wasn’t even it. One reason she didn’t want to go to Chapel Hill as a freshman was that she would be with everyone she grew up with. NOW that is what she is most looking forward to! I do think she got a lot from Pomona,the small seminar style teaching–that she got as an underclassman was wonderful…she traveled all over the west coast…she made friends from all over instead of just from NC.</p>
<p>beth,
welcome! I hope it works out like the Wizard of Oz - your D is clicking the heels of her ruby slippers … sometimes there is no place like home, but it takes a while to discover it. Very best wishes!</p>
<p>I am new to the Parent Forum although I lurk over my D (a junior) shoulders when she’s reading CC. After my D and I visited colleges during spring break I changed my mind completely about this process. </p>
<p>D attends a private school in DC. Her scores are wonderful and more than competitive. She is a National Merit Semi and National Achievement Semi. She won Gold for 5 years in National Latin exam, is in the top 10% of class out of 116 students. Great ECs.</p>
<p>She is an URM.</p>
<p>Her GC insists that she is a shoe-in at any college she wishes to attend. We did the HYPStanford/Berkley/Brown rounds. I realize that most of the schools are the identical: great professors, some TAs, small seminars and some large classes. So we considered the intangibles.</p>
<p>An important intagible is D welcomed into a community of scholars without assumption that she is somehow an inferior student because she is AA. Short of her wearing her SAT scores of 2300+ (she informed me that she’d stop talking to me if I tell her scores and school choices) please inform your children that the HYPS do not give spots to kids who are incable of graduating from their institutions. </p>
<p>The athlete, the legacy, the URM will not receive a free pass in the classes they choose. Many if not most wish to attend Pro School or Grad School and know that they must present great scores and GPA.</p>
<p>Special category will only get you so far. . .</p>
<p>I have had the same thought as you; how would it feel to be a URM or jock whose scores & grades were stellar-- and yet to be assumed to be the recipient of special treatment. However, I suspect after a few discussion seminars and late-night bull sessions in the hallway, your D will dispel any false assumptions.</p>
<p>Your daughter sounds like an incredible student/person. There might be a bit of some bias that the National Achievement (with lower cutoff scores) is a step down from the National Merit Semi, and this tends to work against people like your daughter in terms of general preconceptions about them. Your paragraph about the assumptions regarding AA students is right on target. When I worked for one well-known company, they had a policy of reviewing employees every year. But for minorities and women, the policy was for a review every six months. I had one employee that REFUSED the extra review, saying that putting minorities and women in a separate review class denigrated her performance as a regular employee. She was right, of course, and should have been given the chance to accept or refuse the extra review. But the company didn’t see it that way, and that caused all kinds of problems.</p>
<p>I do feel that in most schools and with most people, once past the admissions gate, the playing field is level, “special considerations” are gone (except for athletes - j/k), and your daughter will be just another student faced with all the same issues every other student faces. Which is exactly how it should be! But I agree that this is a very important intangible.</p>
<p>I’m afraid that this will almost always be the initial assumption that your D will encounter, until she proves otherwise. It is one of the downsides of AA, in my opinion. Everyone assumes that every minority kid at college was “less qualified” and got “the AA boost.” That is certainly not true.</p>
<p>When I went to a highly selective law school 20 years ago, there was an African-American student who would tell people that she didn’t check the race box on the application because SHE wanted to know that she made it into law school because of her own accomplishments, not because of her race. The fact that she was telling us this means that it was important to her that WE know also.</p>
<p>I don’t think things have changed that much. . .</p>
<p>PS I would suspect that the greater the intimacy of the environment she chooses, the more quickly she will be able to take her rightful place as a respected scholar. Perhaps the total number of URMs at the school would also be a factor in her feeling valued, accepted, and ‘normal’-- a scholar, a person-- not a token, a color. </p>
<p>One very important point: people at the elite schools really respect intellectual ability and achievement. Her typical peer will <em>also</em> be a high achiever and an intellectual, and will easily and swiftly recognize these qualities in your D. </p>
<p>When I was at Brown, I remember there were some stereotypes that bit the dust when a “dumb jock” or “legacy” took the floor in class and blew people away with their insight, though some brainiacs kept a low profile on purpose. One of my good friends at Brown was a recruited athlete at the <em>professional</em> level for his sport. He shocked all of us at graduation by turning out to be summa cum laude!</p>
<p>Sent:
You are so very right! Some of the highest-achieving kids in my S’s school are URMs. Not only are they NM Fiinalists, but they are incredibly talented in their ECs.
At the schools your D is interested in, she will be judged on her performance, not her URM status. I’d be interested to learn which of the schools on her list make her feel most “at home.” Good luck to you both as you navigate the application process.</p>
<p>Sent - I hope your D is interested in Princeton. I remember seeing that both Harvard and Princeton have higher URM percentages this year than other highly selective schools. The feeling at Princeton these days is very diverse.</p>
<p>“At the schools your D is interested in, she will be judged on her performance, not her URM status. I’d be interested to learn which of the schools on her list make her feel most “at home.” Good luck to you both as you navigate the application process”</p>
<p>Thank you for that.</p>
<p>I tell my D that “wherever YOU go, YOU take YOU with you”
Since she is intelligent, charming, fun-loving she will do great wherever she goes.</p>
<p>Two top schools with college systems (dorm living) appeal to her. I believe it is true that at most top tier schools the students take classes with URMs that are blazing trails. The kids assumed that since she visited, she must have what it takes and were more interested in what she will bring to the table outside of the classroom. </p>
<p>She is interested in chemical engineering, so 3000 miles from home Stanford (although she promised to stop talking to me if I mentioned her scores and choices. . .heck, Mom needs to vent somewhere (LOL)) is currently in the top 5 choices.</p>
<p>I respect her choices and respect her process. I pointed out some of the students who have frown lines beginning in their foreheads and those who appeared too intense and too focused. It appeared that some were holding their breath and had “stunned” looks on their faces. I wondered the last time many enjoyed a “fall down on the ground laugh” (sans alcohol) that became a life-long memory. I do want that for D.</p>
<p>My telling D to have fun for 4 years since GRAD school looms only confuses her. I try to explain that getting in is more difficult than her classes since she will now focus on classes that she loves (Physics and Chemistry<<go figure) She “fell in” with the driven kids. Her private school buddies will retake a 750 SAT II Math 2C in a heartbeat. I would not allow her to re-take. </p>
<p>D will consider schools outside of the Top 25 simply for the “fun factor” and “at home factor”. This “cool nerd” feels comfortable whereever she visits. . . . so we’ll see. </p>
<p>I am more “sensitive” and concerned about her “down time” than she.</p>
<p>I’m not familiar with the list of schools best known for chemical engineering. My S, however, went to a fair at MIT, held by (female) members of the Chocolate Society. They seemed to have lots of fun trying to come up with perfect chocolate (and he had fun sampling what they offered). MIT is intense, but she could very likely be right at home there.</p>
<p>I did not mean to take this off topic. I am new to the forum.</p>
<p>“He shocked all of us at graduation by turning out to be summa cum laude!”
What’s sad is that many were shocked. Since folk know 2 or 3 athletes who appear unmotivated and not as “bright” they quickly dismiss the intangibles that fall outside of the classroom. </p>
<p>College is more than the classroom. A question we should ask: is this the place where my student will flourish, will grow into a wonderful, contributing adult, with as little pain as possible?</p>
<p>I think that parents should emphasize the wonderful uniqueness that each student brings and bolster “that thing” or “that passion” Will that “passion” receive nurturing? Since the stats for student transfer requests are very small, most students find their way.</p>
<p>Usually, the desire for that dream school fades quickly once school begins at some really great university. I imagine that your D has many issues on her mind–leaving behind friends, leaving family, fear of the new and may focus the anxiety on the “dream school issue”. Allow her to vent and gently nudge her toward the positives.</p>
<p>At Rice there are so many. She should transfer if she is miserable, but as someone mentioned, the “grass is not always, greener.” For many kids, Rice is their “dream school”. She will be surrounded by some really, happy people who got into their “Dream School”. Quickly, that happiness will infect her.</p>
<p>I feel sorry for URM’s who feel the need to tell people that they got in without affrimative action. They are too young to remember that before AA, the assumption was simply that no URM could possibly be qualified. After AA, the assumption is the same, but now there is an explanation for their presence. Racism underlies both assumptions. </p>
<p>If you are URM, the people who will question your right to be there are racists, and there is NOTHING you can do to change their convictions. Do not waste one second trying to impress them, they knew all they need to know the moment they see you. If this young women goes to any of these schools and does well she will be respected by most people based on her performance. Those who remain hung up on her URM status will never be persuaded. Do not let them determine where she goes to school. Although they would love to, they have no right to control her choices.</p>
<p>Sorry if this sounds strident, but I hate to see such an outstanding kid let these sorts of people make her decisions for her.</p>
<p>I agree that it would be a shame for racists (your word) or ill-wishers to deter Sent!'s D from attending the college of her choice. And I don’t think you’re strident, you’re just not personally invested as the parent of a URM would be for his/her S/D (yes, I’m assuming your kids aren’t URM). But the presence of such attitudes among students (faculty? admin?), can make for an uncomfortable experience, even in community of purported scholars.</p>
<p>SBmom, I hope you’re correct. One of the deal-breakers for me is schools on my D’s list have to have at least 3% (pref 5%) black students - and you’d be surprised at how many LACs didn’t make the cut. Fortunately for Sent! & her D, many of the top tier schools are more diverse than schools w/ less rigorous admissions standards.</p>
<p>Anyway, Sent!, best of luck to your D (though I’m certain luck’s got nothing to do with her academic success).</p>
<p>Clarification: The reason everyone was shocked by the summa was HE downplayed his intellect so much. He was the “womanizing jock” who studied in secret! </p>
<p>I would say Brown was a place where people worked as hard as humanly possible while simultaneously maintiaining their bon vivant image as mellow folk who would drop everything for a beach day, a margarita, or a dance…</p>
<p>Don’t underestimate the change that has happened with this generation (or at least MORE change than previous generations). Kids these days are much less prejudiced than ever before and I (and others) have seen enormous progress. For example, inter-racial dating is no longer thought of by kids as “inter-racial dating.” Even using that phrase harks back to an earlier time. And I see the enormous respect and tolerance by most kids for the school’s gay and lesbian club, even though we live in a very polically and religiously conservative area. We’re not in Nirvana yet, and I know that there are still a lot of Cretins out there, but I see changes in these kids today that are truly positive.</p>
Anyway, we live in NC and my daughter applied ED to Pomona in 2002 (entering fall of 2003). It was a calculated strategy, as she had some interest in Brown. But after a lot of research and talking with Brown finaid officers, I was pretty sure she’d be considered more on an individual basis with Pomona finaid. She got in and was elated, and freshman and sophomore years got +$32,000 grants. However, she has been miserably homesick and depressed at Pomona, and is transferring to UNC-Chapel Hill for her junior year. I hope she will be happy there but maybe she’ll just be depressed wherever; but at least she won’t be homesick. I am sooo glad she didn’t go the Brown route–apart from the fact that she most likely wouldn’t have gotten enough aid, I think she would have felt even more lost there. If there is a moral to this story, I’m not sure what it is, unless it’s that a lot of times the kids think they know what they want, and they give their heart to a school, the way my D did to Pomona, and then what they thought they wanted wasn’t even it. One reason she didn’t want to go to Chapel Hill as a freshman was that she would be with everyone she grew up with. NOW that is what she is most looking forward to! I do think she got a lot from Pomona,the small seminar style teaching–that she got as an underclassman was wonderful…she traveled all over the west coast…she made friends from all over instead of just from NC.</p>