Scenario for Admissions Disappointment

<p>"I don’t feel guilty, but I certainly do know that I have unearned privileges and opportunities because of the accident of where I was born.</p>

<p>I also know that the US became a superpower not because our people were smarter or more hard working than those in other countries, but because due to location, we were not devastated by the two World Wars. We also lack the climate problems and disease problems (such as widespread malaria) that Africa has."</p>

<p>So why should whites born well after institutionalized racism was eliminated feel guilty about their situation?</p>

<p>I am not saying they should feel guilty. I am saying that they should acknowledge that they still are the recipient of privileges and benefits that occurred because of the racism that is still going on against blacks and that historically occurred against blacks.</p>

<p>Here’s what I mean. It comes from an article by a University of Texas professor, Robert Jensen (who is NOT the infamous Jensen who thought that blacks were genetically inferior).</p>

<p>"Some people resist the assertions that the United States is still a bitterly racist society and that the racism has real effects on real people. But white folks have long cut other white folks a break. I know, because I am one of them…</p>

<p>I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have been teaching full-time for six years, and I’ve published a reasonable amount of scholarship. </p>

<p>Some of it is the unexceptional stuff one churns out to get tenure, and some of it… actually is worth reading. I work hard, and I like to think that I’m a fairly decent teacher…When I cash my paycheck, I don’t feel guilty. </p>

<p>But, all that said, I know I did not get where I am by merit alone. I benefited from, among other things, white privilege. That doesn’t mean that I don’t deserve my job, or that if I weren’t white I would never have gotten the job. </p>

<p>It means simply that all through my life, I have soaked up benefits for being white. I grew up in fertile farm country taken by force from non-white indigenous people. I was educated in a well-funded, virtually all-white public school system in which I learned that white people like me made this country great. There I also was taught a variety of skills, including how to take standardized tests written by and for white people. </p>

<p>All my life I have been hired for jobs by white people. I was accepted for graduate school by white people. And I was hired for a teaching position at the predominantly white University of Texas, which had a white president, in a college headed by a white dean and in a department with a white chairman that at the time had one non-white tenured professor. " </p>

<p><a href=“http://racerelations.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm[/url]”>http://racerelations.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I think Lawrence University (Wisconsin) was pretty progressive, educating women, blacks & native americans back in I think the mid 1800’s.</p>

<p>Why is it always about race though? The property I live on was taken from Native Americans, but not by me or my ancestors. We bought it from the people who took it. Does that make us the recepients of stolen goods? Perhaps, but we share that guilt with the vast majority of the American population, including blacks and latinos. I am not a thief, nor am I the descendant of a thief. But because it’s always about race, the land was taken “by whites from non-whites”, and thus I am guilty by association, regardless of the fact that my ancestors were three thousand miles away when it all occurred, and were considered on par with dogs when they arrived here.</p>

<p>Has this thread moved just a bit off topic? There are others dealing with affirmative action - I thought this was about making a reasonable list of applications. Could we get back to that one?</p>

<p>Northstarmom,
I am sorry your family faced such discrimination in NY. Of course, it was beyond wrong, as were injustices perpetrated against other ethnic groups. But when will it be over? How many generations will it take until the injustice has been corrected? How long will we have to divide ourselves by nursing past injuries? Can it ever be over? (sounds flakey, I know, but I really wonder)</p>

<p>Wow, you are right. This is way off the original topic 15 pages ago. Sorry!</p>

<p>My parents escaped from eastern Europe, lost everything and started with nothing, and they didn’t speak the language. No one helped them, and My F’s family had been wealthy and lost everything in WWII. His big saying was “they can take everything away from you, but not what is in your mind.” Very pro-education. But he also believed that you should work for what you have and get. Neither he nor my D nor I ever expected anything because of our past trials and tribulations. I didn’t go to an elite school, yet I did OK. My DD has worked harder than I ever did in school, so I think she should deserve more. Your work ethic is what should get ANYONE into the school they choose. Color of skin, religion, country, etc., is mere chance of birth. I am a teacher, and believe me, I could care less who my students are - I admit I (and every teacher I know) has the students we respect the most - the ones who work hard, are polite, make goals, do what is expected and more, and overcome their home lives, learning diabilities, etc. We will do anything to help that student so they have the stats and merit acceptance. My first year back to teaching, we were told to choose 2 students to give awards to - one was a white male, and one was an African American girl. They were my most stellar students. Does it matter that one was white and one not? Didn’t matter to me. Each earned their honor based on performance. Performance is what should matter. Should that young man not get into his school of choice because he is not an URM? No more than the young lady should because she is. Merit is what should govern the world. And yes, I agree that due to historical circumstances, some have a better opportunity than others. But there are many (I see them everyday in class) that don’t take advantage of that opportunity here in the US, for whatever reason. Should they get into a school over a student who worked hard and overcame a lot? I think not. That said, I will not apologize for something that my family never did, nor do I expect an apology for what was done to us. This is life. We should never forget the atrocities of this world. But there are people everywhere, who by sheer willpower, drive, etc., are pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and doing what is necessary to change their lives. I know not everyone has that ability, but will our apologizing solve that problem? No. Recently read about the poor boys from Ethiopia, who are schooled here and are thriving. Perhaps the US was spared so much in the past so that we could help as much as we do. Doing good, helping others less fortunate - that is not atonement for past wrongs, nor should it be. It is however, our way of showing our thanks for what we do have.</p>

<p>I agree that this thread has gone sideways, but I am enjoying the education Northstarmom is providing us. Before we get yanked back on topic, however, could I just plead one point? NSM, you said:</p>

<p>“What is funny to me is why no white people seem to feel unworthy because they or their ancestors took space at excellent colleges that might have gone to a more deserving black person.”</p>

<p>In all your intellectual privilege, you are, I fear, displaying yet another of the biases that exist in our country; that of the chronically well-educated.</p>

<p>I was the first person in my family to attend a university. My mother’s parents were too poor to send her; my father was drafted into WWII. Their parents before them were working class and their parents before them, I believe, still trying to steady themselves in this country, working as laborers to set down roots for the generations that would come after them. No one offered them “student loans” and it never occurred to them, I doubt, to feel righteously indignant about it. They probably saw themselves for what they were; cogs in a great wheel straining forward, each generation striving for a higher and higher ring. My husband’s family has almost the exact history, except that his father did complete college on the GI Bill. </p>

<p>That, in and of itself, made an enormous difference in our experiences. It was assumed that he and his siblings would go to college. In my case – especially as a girl – it was a gradual and somewhat grudging acceptance by my parents that they were expected to help me achieve my educational goals. </p>

<p>As a woman from an uneducated family, I was, perhaps, more familiar with what it’s like to be on the “outside” of the educational system than it appears you were. I never even heard of Syracuse till I was in my mid-20’s. I desperately wanted to go east for college, but my parents could neither afford it, and they wisely knew that my working class background would make me incompatible with the schools I envisioned myself attending.</p>

<p>When I graduated from college with my B.A. in 1975, I was crestfallen to discover, in my first two jobs, that I was expected to make coffee for the men in the office. Bias? Hellooooo? I was fired from my second job for pointing out that whomever arrived in the office first would be the best candidate for making coffee, but because I was responsible, along with my husband, for the financial welfare of his children (who he was rarely permitted to see, if you would like to explore another form of bias that was cheerfully maintained up until recently…) I had to beg for my job back, volunteering to make that coffee and fill paperclip jars.</p>

<p>Oddly enough, I remember this experience as having made me a less prideful person. It also eventually led to two significant promotions because my superiors were so impressed with the “character” I had demonstrated.</p>

<p>No, this does not equate to slavery. Nor does it equate to what the Jews endured in the Holocaust, but I don’t see any special consideration being made for them. Yes, there are bigots around. There are also liars, cheats, people who will break your heart and skunks of every stripe waiting to ruin everyone’s day, NOT just the black person’s. And the rest of us have no AA, no “programs” and no soapbox (although it appears I am standing on one, so I’ll shut up now…) If I have ever displayed bias toward you or any black person, I apologize profusely. I honestly don’t think it’s one of my vast array of flaws, but I’ll plead guilty just so you understand I am sincere and have no intent to mock here.</p>

<p>My point is, I believe, if you look for it, you can find bias anywhere. And if you get stuck looking for it, you’ll never see anything else.</p>

<p>Northstarmom, I usually agree with you but on the following quote I have to disagree</p>

<p>“”'m afraid that this will almost always be the initial assumption that your D will encounter, until she proves otherwise. It is one of the downsides of AA, in my opinion. Everyone assumes that every minority kid at college was “less qualified” and got “the AA boost.” That is certainly not true.
"</p>

<p>No, that assumption is not a result of affirmative action. It’s a result of the racist assumptions that date back to the inception of America."</p>

<p>The Bakke supreme court case showed that the white applicant was denied admission twice even though his stats were higher than that of all the other black applicants.</p>

<p>Of course this could be chalked up to inherent differences of opportunity, racism of the supreme court, etc etc etc.</p>

<p>The US is unique in its method of college admissions. In most other countries admission to a college is solely based on a gender-blind color-blind objective admissions test. The admissions does not matter on any subjective info, but rather on a very objective number. I’m not saying that admissions by stats is better than a holistic approach. I am merely saying that affirmative action is not colorblind.</p>

<p>My own personal opinion is that we should have affirmative action based on economic status rather than skin color. After all it is those at the proverbial “basement” of society(such as the Irish and blacks in the 19th century) which tend to dislike each other and be discriminated against. </p>

<p>This phenomenon is not simply a relic of the past. A big issue in the LA mayoral election is whether the black voters will trust the latino candidate. Ultimately, it should be based on economics, not color.</p>

<p>and it was Clarence Thomas(who I usually abhor for his block-headed conservative views) that said that well-educated minorites have to live with a stigma. Heck, my AP english teacher says to this day he is told he got in to Stanford only because he’s latino.</p>

<p>btw, those kids who have dorms or buildings after their name should be evaluated on a level playing field. The endowment of these colleges is so HUGE that many “elite” colleges could operate on the interest.</p>

<p>PPS. If I ever strike it rich, I’ll donate enough money to my alma mater to have a dorm named after me. Then I’ll sit back and laugh as students try to pronounce my last name which is analogous to dgfhtjckhkwqnm in pronouncability :)</p>

<p>I would highly recommend that anyone interested in the issue of race and racial understanding in America see the movie “Crash”, which opened in theaters this past weekend. I don’t even want to describe the movie – it is simply very thought-provoking, and it says a lot about the types of assumptions we make - not just the assumptions about race, but the assumptions about people who we consider to be racist … or free of racism. It is a very powerful movie. I guarantee that if you see it you will come out somewhat shaken and with a somewhat different perspective than when you went in.</p>

<p>As one who is a classic example of benefiting from privilege, I’d like to add something to this thread. My family came to the US in the 1600’s. I have an ancestor who signed the Declaration of Independence and another who was in the group in Philadelphia who wrote the Constitution. Their enterprise in coming across the Atlantic, despite the fact that they were middle-class sheep farmers from Scotland, along with their energetic support of those who led the war of independence, put them in a position to develop a sizeable family fortune by the end of the 19th century. That sizable fortune (gone now BTW), in those days, meant automatic acceptance to Harvard. Hence the history of Harvard in my family. Probably my ancestors were also smart, but they wouldn’t have had the chance to apply to Harvard, no matter how smart, were they not wealthy white men.</p>

<p>Do I feel guilty? Yes. My biggest rebellious act was to go to Princeton instead of Harvard. I never ever felt I had really earned my educational success. Do I realize that my family’s well-being rests on the backs of African and Chinese and Japanese and Latin American slaves and indentured laborers? Yes. Does my guilt do any good? No. Only if I act on it. </p>

<p>Do I want to pay it back by giving my daughter’s spot at Princeton to someone else? No. She is my daughter and I would kill for her. If she hadn’t gotten in to Princeton and someone else with her qualifications who was a URM had would I accept it? Yes. Absolutely yes. Do I want to pay my debt back by donating money? Hell yes. And so does my entire family. Not only that, but my brothers and sisters have all taken jobs in the field of social justice and education and mental health. There are lots of ways to pay this debt.</p>

<p>So my only real point here is that Northstarmom is right. Those of us in privilege need to acknowledge how we got here. Guilt probably isn’t helpful. Mine only prevented me from having confidence in my abilities until much later in life than was necessary. But I believe we need to try live in such a way that every single person in this country can get the same opportunity to build a life of resources and privileges for themselves, if they have the spirit and desire and ability to do so. </p>

<p>And college admissions is just one part. Immigration laws, health policies, welfare, preschool funding, it never ends. Needless to say, everyone will disagree on how to go about it. The first step is just to acknowledge - yeah, I got here with some help. Maybe I would have gotten here anyway, due to whatever natural talents I have, but the help was there. So the more talented people can get that help, the better for the world.</p>

<p><em>gets off soapbox</em></p>

<p>no need to get off the soapbox you are absolutely right!</p>

<p>“those of us in privilege need to acknowledge how we got here.”</p>

<p>I agree!</p>

<p>“those of us in privilege need to acknowledge how we got here.”</p>

<p>YES!! This would be very good! It would help everyone to be able to discern between advantage and not. Seriously…</p>

<p>And, please guide another…</p>

<p>Lots of very successful people don’t know how to “live” well/right. We need to pass this message on for everyone’s sake.</p>

<p>aobut the social justice, as a teen I’m wondering where the student activism of the 60’s has gone</p>

<p>liberalism has been reduced to sexual issues instead of economic liberalism as well :(</p>

<p>I hope to change that</p>

<p>And I wanted to add, there are many people who are white who got to their current state of resource accumulation via sheer determination. Up from poverty, across oceans, escaped from pogroms of all sorts. The one thing I do believe, and I know this is controversial, is that when you are fighting upstream to privilege, being non-white in a country that has been dominantly white, it’s harder. First there were actual discriminatory laws. Later it was just been easier to recognize you as other if you were non-white, and thus easier to discriminate, and when we are all going after a set pool of resources, discrimination against the other is a way to keep those resources for your team. And the white team had most of the resources.</p>

<p>I’m throwing this out there in part to test the thickness of my skin…</p>

<p>I absolutely agree that it would be great if privileged individuals acknowledged how they got there and that usually they had nothing to do with it. I somewhat disagree, though, that it is harder to fight your way upstream if you are non-white. Aren’t programs such as AA, college admission “points” for being URM and employment quotas examples of giving non-whites some advantage? Are there similar programs in place for poor or uneducated “white” people?</p>

<p>"Aren’t programs such as AA, college admission “points” for being URM and employment quotas examples of giving non-whites some advantage? "</p>

<ol>
<li>Employment quotas are illegal.</li>
<li>I believe that the Supreme Court decision of last year also made it illegal for URMs to get college points for being URMs.</li>
<li>Affirmative action is supposed to mean that if there are 2 equally qualified applicants, the URM will get the job/college opening. </li>
</ol>

<p>The advantage of URM is highly overrated. I am an alum interviewer for an Ivy and I get to see all sorts of applicants. In my area, no URM has been accepted in at least 5 years. The people whom I see who clearly have an advantage are legacies, and due to historic discrimination against URMs at my college (and at many colleges), the legacy pool is overwhelmingly white. </p>

<p>When it comes to the very top candidates, regardless of race, all are extraordinary with scores typically in at least the National Merit Commended level and achievements that usually include at least one state level honor. I have seen URMS – Native American, Hispanic, blacks with such stellar achievements rejected as is also the case with white and Asian students.</p>

<p>I don’t see any evidence of discrimination for or against the URMs. I think that the field is very competitive. If one happens to be a legacy of any race with the kind of achievements that I described, one is likely to be tipped in. If one is a legacy who’s a URM but who doesn’t have the achievements that I described, one is likely to be bested by someone else who does have those achievements plus legacy status.</p>

<p>URMS are at a disadvantage when it comes to legacy status at most top colleges. For those who don’t know, discrimination against URMs occurred at even northern colleges. For instance, Princeton didn’t accept its first black student until 1945. Places like Davidson, University of Alabama and many other colleges didn’t accept black students until the 1960s. Undertandably, black students didn’t flock to places that historically had been hostile against them.</p>

<p>And, believe it or not, there were black students who were extremely qualified for such colleges. For instance, around 1915, Dunbar High School, the black academic high school in Washington D.C. was outscoring the white academic high school there.</p>

<p>Coleman Young (a Tuskeegee airman who later became mayor of Detroit) was accepted by University of Detroit, and that acceptance was revoked when they realized he was black.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, yes, there are programs in place for poor and disadvantaged white people. Upward Bound and, I believe, Trio offer precollege summer programs and tutoring and mentoring for people of any race who are low income and first generation college students.</p>

<p>Many colleges are seeking out low income, first generation college students of all races. A white candidate from, for example, a low income community in Appalachia, with grades/stats indicating that s/he could succeed at a top college would be a highly desireable candidate. My guess is that due to the rarity of such candidates at places like Ivies and East Coast top LACs, s/he would be even more advantaged in the admissions pool than would a URM from a privileged background.</p>

<p>As for your doubts that it’s harder to fight your way upstream if you’re nonwhite: There have been plenty of studies indicating that if one is black, sounds black or has a black sounding name that one is treated in a more negative fashion than would a similarly dressed, educated, etc. person who is white.</p>

<p>Studies have indicated that black shoppers are followed around more by security guards than are similarly dressed white shoppers. The resumes of applicants with black sounding names are less likely to result in calls for interviews than are the same resumes with a white sounding name at the top. </p>

<p>Callers with black or Hispanic sounding accents are less likely to be told that apartments are available than are the exact same people who call with “white” sounding accents.</p>

<p>From what I experienced myself as a black person and what I have seen happen to my sons, I am convinced that teachers and administrators of all races are more likely to see black students’ work as mediocre even when the work is excellent.</p>

<p>Both of my sons are gifted and had PSAT scores in the commended level. Their scores were in at least the top 10% of their class. </p>

<p>I repeatedly saw instances in which teachers and administrators either praised them for things that were mediocre (such as barely making honor roll or simply passing their classes with Bs, Cs).</p>

<p>I also saw instances in which my sons did things that were way over the top in terms of being brilliant that the teachers either ignored or viewed as evidence of mediocrity. </p>

<p>There’s a psychological phenomenon called the “halo effect” which means that if teachers expect excellence out of individual students, that is what will happen even if those students have no more ability than do the other students. Students will rise to teacher’s expectations, and if teachers believe in students’, the teachers will find ways to allow the students to achieve.</p>

<p>Some research has indicated that people in general stereotype black males as being lazy, stupid and criminal. Probably there also are negative perceptions about black females. I am convinced that when it comes to black students, there’s a negative halo effect. Teachers expect them to be mediocre, so don’t reinforce their good work, and also convey their expectations to black students that the students will barely get by.</p>

<p>"But I believe we need to try live in such a way that every single person in this country can get the same opportunity to build a life of resources and privileges for themselves, if they have the spirit and desire and ability to do so. </p>

<p>And college admissions is just one part. Immigration laws, health policies, welfare, preschool funding, it never ends. Needless to say, everyone will disagree on how to go about it. The first step is just to acknowledge - yeah, I got here with some help. Maybe I would have gotten here anyway, due to whatever natural talents I have, but the help was there. So the more talented people can get that help, the better for the world."</p>

<p>I agree!</p>

<p>Also, even though I am black, I have always known that I benefited from privileges that I did not earn. An example is the fact that I was the fourth generation of my family to go to college. As a result, I had a far more sophisticated knowledge about education and college than did most other black students and, frankly, many white people of my generation. (BTW, up until the 1940s, most Americans didn’t even graduate from high school!).</p>

<p>Anyway, my way of paying the rent for my space on earth is to try to give back to others, including on boards like this. I do feel that all of us would have a better world if everyone was given the opportunity to develop their talents to the fullest.</p>

<p>Hmmm this thread makes me think. Since the inception of mankind, people have been told so many lies. First by the scrupulous religious leaders convinced that a man should live to help others. Then 70-100 years ago communist took the religion out and said well a man should live for his fellow man. Thus giving society more rights over individuals. However, in real life it does not work that way. Merit is only way to go up. Merit mean education only it includes do your best in whatever field one may choose. Other factors may impede your progress but if one is to believe then there is no Ray Charles, Bill Cosby, Michael Jordan, Ford, Einstein, Bill Gates etc. These people tried there best in whatever field they choose. </p>

<p>Yes a color of skin or money can put a damper in one’s goal but generally if one is willing to improve their life now it can work. Yes there is exception to AA people who came as slave but times have changed. Many recent immigrants here have come with no money and no professional degree and ready to pay even illegal immigrant fees why? Because American culture Value Merit and do not let people stop you from going ahead. Going to IVY is not the only success. I work with many IVY league graduates and they make same money what I make. So when I here that Merit is not a good idea specially people who talk about abolishing SAT, I just think okay what other alternatives they will offer. None.</p>

<p>Lat thins race of color has nothing to do with what one wants to achieve. It may be some influence with $$$$$ but people can overcome that if they choose to work hard while as a student. It maybe harder as an adult as one has more responsibilty as a family wage earner. But it is still doable. My secretary, an AA woman, owns more than 30 apartments. Who gave her handout- no one period. I admire her everyday. If she can do it, so we can also try out.</p>