<p>Scratching my head here.</p>
<p>I don’t see “all men created equal” as meaning the same as “a level playing field”.</p>
<p>Do the rest of you?</p>
<p>Sometime ago “The Black Scholar” published a study titled “Racism without Racists.” A study of the success of middle class AA children in a major western city showed that white teachers often put fewer requirements on AA kids, where generally more supportive emotionally, and were better liked by the AA students and parents than they were by the white parent and students. The teachers loved these kids, but it was clear that in these teachers attempts to reach out and give the AA students a break, they where not placing the same requirements on them as they were others, therefore the AA kids were ending up under-prepared. The article pointed out that discrimination can happen both ways, too lenient, or disregarding achievement. That is why we need to recognize the burden many URM kids face. To add a few merit points for making it through today’s environment seems not only fair, but the least that can be done to reward the extra effort these kids have to make in order to have credentials similar to more privileged white students.</p>
<p>The fact that the playing field isn’t level, but we often attempts to level it, as well we should, such as untimed tests for LD students. Nor do occasional abuses or unintended consequences require that we throw the baby out w/ the bath water (I’d rather be over-inclusive and give extra time to the handful of student/parents who are running a scam, than unintentionally deny a legit LD request for extra time).</p>
<p>Also, we tend to forget that most of the students who enter top schools - -even w/ aid of some accommodation - - are qualified, even they are not the most qualified. And if they’re all qualified, what’s wrong w/ Vassar accepting (as it did for many years) a few more male applicants w/ admittedly lower stats than their female counterparts or giving the male apps more generous aid packages in the name of gender parity?</p>
<p>Following up on idad’s post, here’s some info about research on how teachers perceive black students’ abilities:</p>
<p>"Do Teachers Perceive Black and White Student Performance and Potential Differently? </p>
<p>The answer to the question of whether teachers perceive the academic potential of black and white students differently is “Yes.”</p>
<p>Ferguson says that experimental studies confirm that race is an important part of the information teachers use to form an impression of a student andhis or herpotential. In one experiment, teachers were asked to listen to a tape of a student’s response to a question about their favorite TV show. They were then shown a picture (of either a black or white girl or boy) that was supposed to be a picture of the student speaking (but was not necessarily). The teachers were then asked to rate the taped responses for personality, quality of the response, current academic abilities, and future academic potential. Ferguson says that the outcome of this experiment showed that there was a highly significant relationship between the race of the student in the picture they were shown and their estimation of the student’s response and academic abilities."
<a href=“North Central Regional Educational Laboratory”>North Central Regional Educational Laboratory;
<p>momdream:</p>
<p>If school knows that rich URM are admitted based on merit, I am sure teachers will start expecting same results from that. You are proving my assumptions that Delink admission based on merit and use opportunities missed by poor URM to give them leg up.</p>
<p>2 suggestions for getting into your “dream school”
1.) If you’re sure it’s truly your top choice, apply Early Decision! The adcoms are fresher in the process, more open, have a smaller (tho by no means inferior) pool of applicants, they know you you want them and will enroll, and are just beginning to “construct” their class, so your app won’t get so drowned out. My son applied and was accepted ED to Columbia University. Of that pool,they accepted 23%, deferred 27% (not sure how many of those got in), and rejected 50%. Of the remaining RD pool, they @8.5%!</p>
<p>2.) Figure out WHY it’s your dream school-WHY it’s the best, and most unique, fit for you and vice versa, then develop that theme throughout your app. It’s more than having a “hook” (hate that expression)-it’s about showing, not telling, the adcom who you are as a person. My son did this,and it worked for him. He solicited lots of advice, but in the end, he had to choose his own road, e.g. in the face of my strong reservations he used two 4 letter words in his essay (he was illustrating his thoughts during a car crash), and it worked because it rang true for him. In apps to any college, esp a top school, I believe Shakespeare said it best: “To thine own self be true”.</p>
<p>3.) (OK-3 suggestions): Have a few other “backup dream” schools-where you end up is where you were meant to be.</p>
<p>But isn’t ED unwise if $$ is factor - - couldn’t you get locked in w/ a low fin aid award?</p>
<p>Yes, NYC, you are right. If finances are a problem, it’s wise to be able to compare financial aid offers, and to then choose the one that fits one’s budget.</p>
<p>It’s important to know, too, that even if a college has an EFC estimator, you might not get that much aid. Another possibility is that your aid may consist of more loans than you’d like to carry.</p>
<p>I have seen students posting on CC about getting aid packages that consist of $20,000 a year in loans.</p>
<p>columbiamom2 writes:
</p>
<p>The most profound statement I’ve read on this board.</p>
<p>Hi, NYC (me, too!)-a very good point, however CU assured us that they are “need-blind” and “full-need”,meaning their grants would bridge the gap, and they did! Also, we knew we’d receive the admissions decision by 12/15/04 (it was actually 12/10/04) along with an estimated financial aid package (the final award was exactly the same). At CU, as with any other college, if the package is truly too low (and they encourage you in that case to contact the FA office to discuss and work something out, which is much easier to do that early in the process), you can back out of ED admission with no consequences. That would have given my son over 2 weeks to send in his other 10 college apps, which he had ready to go anyway, in case of rejection or deferral by CU. It’s a good idea to contact the FA office of your possible ED school in Sep or very early Oct to find out if they’re full-need, partial need, etc., and to discuss options in case the financial aid package is too small. The EFC is supposed to be what your family can afford to pay (possibly with a PLUS loan), and our position was that if our son could get into a wonderful school like CU, we were going to do whatever we could to pay for it. Also, ED gave our son more time to apply for private scholarships. He applied for 15 scholarships, so far has won 3 (one of which is full tuition plus a paid internship for 4 years), was rejected by 5, and is still waiting to hear from 7! And as you will see from his stats, he is not a 1600 SAT and has not yet cured cancer! Could he have gotten a “full ride” at a much lower tier school? Probably, but we decided early on that we would accept CU’s promise and work with them (btw, his FA officer and I are on a first-name basis by now) to finance it, rather than comparing awards from several schools to see which one would give him the best “deal”. We are far, far, far from wealthy, however this is a decision that every family must make on their own. Good luck to you!</p>
<p>columbiamom … there is a lot of variation between how colleges calculate financial need for families, including whether or not they consider funds in retirement accounts; how they treat self-employment income; the extent to which they include home equity; how they weigh in non-custodial parent & step-parent assets & income. Believe me, the “gap” for a divorced, self-employed parent like me can be a chasm. If you are dead set on sending your kid to a particular school, no matter what it takes… then I suppose you can go the ED route. But I am not in a financial position to have that attitude – and there are a lot of other families in that position. So I think in general, the admonition that financial need and ED don’t mix holds true. </p>
<p>Yes, you can get out if the award isn’t sufficient… but that is a very, very difficult thing for a parent to tell a kid at a time when there are not other financial aid awards in hand. At least when my own son turned down his first choice college, he did so with a generous award from his second choice and a clear idea of where he was going.</p>
<p>Calmom has described the situation in a nutshell, in my opinion. Not to say that there are not families who decide that come hell or high water their kid will go to a certain college. I have seen families determined to borrow, work themselves to the bone, scrimp, sell to go to a certain college. </p>
<p>There was an excellent post early in the year–December or January by someone called Nan who applied ED to NW and felt that it was the right way to go. She wrote a lengthy , informative post about applying ED even when you need financial aid which is a good read. For those that are aware of the worst case scenario and are prepared and willing to deal with it, ED can be a viable option. In my opinion, for most of us, it a chancey thing. Until you can see other offers, it is rough to evaluate a financial aid package that could be the best you are going to get or really quite stingy. You need other offers to gauge that. I have seen posts from kids concerned about taking large loans, and they are rightfully concerned. And some of those large loans are offered up by some pretty good colleges that are supposed to be generous with financial aid. It does not help you when you get a package that is inadequate from a college with a reputation for giving out generous aid.</p>
<p>Whew, I’m stinging a bit, but very, very good points by all. Pls remember, tho that the initial question was “How did you get into your dream school?”. I tend to believe that applying ED (even tho they do NOT lower standards for ED applicants) helped my son get into CU. This year, Columbia College had a record 1895 ED apps, from which they accepted 23%, deferred 27%, and rejected 50%.So,they have now filled almost 27% of the CC freshman class from the ED pool. They then had an RD pool (which of course includes the EDs who were deferred) of @16,200 from which to select the remaining 1200 or so slots, which gave a whopping 7.5% acceptance rate from the huge RD pool. As wonderful as he is, I fear my son’s app would have been drowned in that sea of vals, sals (he is now 3rd in his class of 158), 1600 SATers (he’s a 1450), cancer curers, and leap-tall-buldings-in-a-single-bounders. </p>
<p>It is indeed a discouarging Catch-22 that great students have to apply ED to have a real chance of getting in, but may very well not get the FA (we are very lucky, I know) they need and deserve. It seemed so much easier in my day, but then I went to a SUNY on a “Full-need ride”-my single parent family could never afford a car, new clothes, and sometimes not even a phone…I guess like everyone else I wanted “better” for my kids…</p>
<p>I want to congratulate your son on his acceptance to Columbia. Give your address, it was quite a feat, as he did not have the geographics on his side. Even with the ED boost, he must have been an impressive applicant. With so many applicants from the greater NYC area, they could have just as easily deferred him to compare him with the many others in the pool. From what I have heard the yield from kid who live nearby is pretty high too, so they don’t need the “bind” from these kids as much as, say a kid who is applying from Oklahoma, who may need that bind to help him through cold feet about going so far away from home. Your son must have stood out in the pool for them to scoop him right up.</p>
<p>Thanx so much, Jamimom-what a lovely post! We, too, were told: “oh he won’t get in being from NYC-he should apply to Brown instead”. Who knows what the adcoms are thinking-some of it is just luck. 2 other factors that I think may have helped were an outstanding supplemental rec letter from the Director of the summer theatre program he has attend for the past 3 summers (she is a former admissions officer for Yale, so p’raps knew what to write?), and he had a very good interview (he tends to come across well in interviews) with a Class of 2002 alum at The Columbia Club.
Congrats to your offspring, too-they are lucky to have parents like us-lol!</p>
<p>Congratulations to you and your child for acheiving admissions to Columbia. I have only just started using CC, and would be curious as to his or her Stats. My son is interested in Columbia, but we have pretty much put it off our list because they are so selective. He is definitely not a 1600 or even a 1500. His verbal is strong, but math weak, which is dragging his GPA down.</p>
<p>I cannot believe this thread still lives. It’s certainly taken some strange twists, and become one of the most viewed threads on the Parents Forum (beaten only by andi’s “Picking up the pieces.” We need an archeologist to dig through the bones of this thread and trace the development of the turns it has taken. The diagram of that would look something like the twin helix of a DNA strand.</p>
<p>ParentRobert, your screen name cannot help but remind me of the Dread Pirate Roberts. Only you’re the Dread Parent Robert!</p>
<p>dig, I was thinking the same thing about this thread. Things that just won’t die. I"ll venture a guess that the only things left after “Global Nuclear Night” comes will be fire ants, coyotes, a Republican majority in the U.S. House and this thread.</p>
<p>O.K. I’ll admit it. That was a bit of an exaggeration . It would probably get the coyote. It’s a warm-blooded creature.</p>
<p>I’m twisting the thread back a few posts.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, I’m not taking issue with the findings of the study you cite. But as I read your post, I wondered if the teachers’ were so much racist as they were channeling an unconscious experiential bias that their black students, as a group, had less support from home than their other students, thus limiting academic success. This concept is touched on peripherally in the synopsis of the study, but not as a direct causal agent.</p>
<p>Teachers, as a group, tend to be liberal, and we all know that liberal = unbiased, right? Also, there was no attribution as to where the study was conducted. Geography would be a significant variable in this, so I’m surprised it wasn’t mentioned – would the results be different in Mississippi than in Vermont? </p>
<p>Instead of so much energy going into justifying AA for African Americans at the college level, perhaps more could go into understanding the absence of the father in the homes of so many of those families at the pre-school and elementary level and exploring ways to effect real change in that realm. </p>
<p>My apologies if that strikes you as politically incorrect. It isn’t meant to be inflammatory. It just seems that the problem should be worked at the beginning of the equation rather than at the end.</p>
<p>It needs to be worked on from all directions.</p>