Scenario for Admissions Disappointment

<p>Hi, Parent Robert,</p>

<p>My son’s “stats”:
GPA: (on a 100 point scale): 93.4 unweighted, 94.6 weighted
Class rank: 5/158
SAT I: 1450 (750V, 700M)
SAT IIs: 720 Writing, 710 World History, 610 Math IIC
AP Courses (took all that are offered by school): AP Spanish, AP Calculus, AP English, and AP US History, plus a College Now course in Psychology.
ECs: Founder/EIC of school Lit Mag-4 years, 1 of 2 student reps on School Leadership Team-4 years, Student Council Rep: 2 years, GSA Co-founder, Day of Silence Coordinator-3 years, Yearbook Editor-grade 12, Mock Trial Team-2 years, Production Stage Manager for 8 mainstage shows, Performed in 10 shows, LIghting Designer and Head Technician for 10 main stage shows, volunteered for auditions, Open House, and Open School nights, etc. etc.
Community Service: Camp Dost (camp for children with cancer), Ensemble Theatre Community School, Signature Theatre Company intern, Pete Sanders Group intern, AIDS Walk NY, Sunnyside Community Center, Center for Arts Education Advisory Council, NYSTEA delegate (3 years), International Center for Photography intern, America Coming Together volunteer canvasser, peer tutor and mentor, The Queens Players, Time Square Group, NYC High School Fair, etc. etc.
Attends new (est. 9/01) intensive dual focus arts/academic high school-takes 2.5 hours of arts classes, plus all academic courses, per day (7 hour school day, not counting extensive hours of rehearsals, etc.).
Awards/honors: NMSC finalist, photos exhibited at ICP, NHS (2 years), Gold Honor Roll (4 years), NYSTEA Award of Excellence (3 years), “PerfectTen” Award from Center for Arts Education (JUne '04).
My son applied ED, which I think helped-had a great interview, which I think helped. Best of luck to your son!!</p>

<p>“Northstarmom, I’m not taking issue with the findings of the study you cite. But as I read your post, I wondered if the teachers’ were so much racist as they were channeling an unconscious experiential bias that their black students, as a group, had less support from home than their other students, thus limiting academic success. This concept is touched on peripherally in the synopsis of the study, but not as a direct causal agent.”</p>

<p>To me, the “why” is interesting, but irrelevant. The bottom line is that in the study, the teachers’ views of the academic potential of students was race based. </p>

<p>From the previously cited article: “Do teachers have different expectations for black and white students? Does this cause them to behave differently toward black and toward white students? Again, Ferguson says, the answer to the question of whether teachers have different expectations for black and for white students is ‘Yes.’ He also says that research supports the contention that teachers behave differently toward black and toward white students.”</p>

<p>There has been research that indicates that when teachers are told that students are high potential and will do very well in school assuming the teacher finds a way of encouraging them, the students indeed do very well even though their “potential” was randomly assigned by the researcher.</p>

<p>This is called the “halo effect.” </p>

<p>Presumably if teachers assume that black students won’t do well, then a reverse halo effect would occur. </p>

<p>Certainly in our society, there has been a longstanding belief that blacks are inferior. That belief after all is what supported the institution of slavery, which was based on the notion that black people were inferior human beings, incapable of high intelligence or morality, who needed to be controlled by white people. </p>

<p>Indeed, during the time of slavery, information about black slaves was recorded along with livestock records. Black people also were seen as incapable of having such emotions as love of their own children. Thus, it was considered fine to sell children away from their parents.</p>

<p>Given the hundreds of years that slavery existed in this country, and the prevalance of laws separating the races until about 40 years ago (Heck, at least one southern state – Alabama? – still has on its books a law preventing interracial marriage) – odds are that it would be difficult for any teacher in this country, regardless of their race, to be able to fairly assess the potential of a black child.</p>

<p>Below is info about research at Harvard demonstrating Americans’ implicit biases about others. The quote is from a Knight Foundation report on bias in journalism: <a href=“http://www.knightfdn.org/default.asp?story=diversity/lehrman2/index.html[/url]”>http://www.knightfdn.org/default.asp?story=diversity/lehrman2/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I suggest that anyone curious about their own biases take the test that the below links to.</p>

<p>“While we may not notice our resulting preferences and distinctions, we act on them all the time. In 1998, social scientists now at Harvard University, the University of Washington and the University of Virginia designed the Implicit Association Test to learn more about unconscious bias and categorization. Available on the Internet to anyone, their quiz measures automatic responses to images and words. Over six years, visitors to the web site (<a href=“https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/[/url]”>https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/&lt;/a&gt;) have taken about 2.5 million tests. People of all races show a more positive attitude toward whites …”</p>

<p>Northstarmom</p>

<p>This is a fascinating discussion, but so far off topic of the thread that I doubt many people will find it. How about starting a new thread with this as the topic?</p>

<p>Thanks for the info. Your son has much higher grades, and more numerous and impressive ECs than mine. I could see him setting himself up for disappointment if he even attempted to apply.</p>

<p>I don’t know how many thousands of teachers there are in each state, how many different races, ethic groups, cultural experiences are represented, but I find it ironic that someone would group us all together,and then make statements about how teachers are prejudiced and that is why one group of students suffers. Any experienced teacher knows you teach the child that enters your class and who that individual is can vary from one day to the next. I started to look at the ei test and stopped when the grouped white and good vs. black and bad. </p>

<p>Going back to the topic… the best defense against admissions disappointment is to research a group of schools that you would like to go to and include at least one safety school. Too many students focus on their reach schools and overestimate their ability to get into match schools.</p>

<p>We have been told by our GC that Columbia in particular amongst Ivies relies on ED. I cannot confirm that with statistics. Ask “Byerly”:)</p>

<p>". I started to look at the ei test and stopped when the grouped white and good vs. black and bad. "</p>

<p>I suggest that you take the whole test. The next part of it pairs white/bad and black/good. Your reaction times are measured as you put the parings together, and that ends up being the way that whether or not you have a bias is determined.</p>

<p>I can tell you for certain that we have had four students with low academic ability get full college scholarships based upon their athletic talents. When I say low, I mean very low- remedial classes, unable to perform in AP classes, low GPA, low ACT/SAT, - one student never did pass the FCAT. No doubt tutors will be assigned to carry them piggyback through the easiest college classes available.</p>

<p>I have to agree. I am still mystified about some of our athletic scholarship students. If they barely passed the FCAT, were in regular and remedial classes because they could handle the honors and AP classes, how on earth are they managing in college? Now we have had good student with athletic scholarships, but it amazes me how many students who struggle with basic reading/writing skills, low grades, low ACT/SAT scores have gotten scholarships. Do they just get carried through or do they use them for their athletic talents until they flunk out?</p>

<p>Hmm…This thread got necro’d for sure. However, I made a post that was somewhat relevant to that of the OP here. I’m keeping completely silent/vague on the process to avoid the very situation brought up.</p>

<p>WOW, I am amazed at the bitterness towards athletes and students that are not the the “cookie cutter” type of high achieving student. First of all how on earth do you know the gpa and test scores of your schools athletes. What they have and what you think they have are probably not even close. My son was a recruited athlete and is still playing in college. He practices at least 4 hours a day and does his schoolwork and classes and that is in non-season. Many parents like some of you that “assume” his grades are subpar are always surprised that he has alway’s maintained a high gpa, plus sports, volunteering and work. His scenario is not that uncommon among athletes playing in college. They just choose not to advertise grades and scores. Give it a rest!</p>

<p>To the OP, I was often asked about where I would apply senior year. The summer before college apps, I found this site and realized I had slim chances of getting into top colleges. Therefore, whenever anyone asked where I was applying, I would always say I wasn’t sure.</p>

<p>Because the athletes bring in the dollars and the bottom line is the almighty dollar.</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone was criticizing all high school athletes. I’m reading all of these indignant posts by parents of athletes. No one was talking about YOUR kid. We know there are students who are both academically competent and athletically gifted. We are thinking of those students of limited intellect, but get in over students who are academically gifted because they are a high school’s star athlete. I have an athletic daughter and know how you worry about them overdoing it while trying to pull off everything: academics, community service, school musicals, honor society AND their sport. But there are probably more average students getting in via community colleges than there are through sport scholarships anyway. (They just don’t get the kid glove treatment when they arrive).</p>

<p>^^ Not sure why you brought this thread back. An athlete does NOT get into a college because they are a “high school’s star athlete”. MOST high school top athletes are not going to be recruited by colleges. It is a small percentage that are good enough to play in college- especially at the D1 or top D3 level. Being “athletic” isn’t the draw. Being so talented at your sport that you bring something to the college program is the draw.</p>

<p>from OP this happened to a girl at my school…everyone just telling her “ivy ivy ivy”…now she’s resigning herself if she gets accepted to Stanford…she’s in a dream world for sure.</p>

<p>This has happened at our high school… one kid last year, a decent student but not stellar, with very lopsided stats, had a legacy connection to one of the top colleges and had attended several summer programs there. She was in love with the place and absolutely certain that she’d get in. Applied nowhere else. Rejected. As far as she was concerned, that was the day she died… she was utterly inconsolable for weeks. It was pretty sad, especially since she hadn’t given herself any other options. I think she went in-state.</p>

<p>A few years earlier, a truly outstanding student received tremendous pressure from family and even some faculty to apply to all the Ivies, just so they could be proud of her acceptances. She wasn’t interested in leaving home for college, so she didn’t apply (as she put it, why take that opportunity away from someone else who really wants it?). She’s insanely happy at the flagship state U, where she’s thrived academically and socially – and in her first year, she met a wonderful young man who’s been with her ever since. Happily, the family didn’t push that girl’s younger sister.</p>

<p>When geek_son’s turn came, everyone assumed he’d be IvyIvyIvy. Knowing how competitive the process is these days, and how truly small his “pond” is, I didn’t want him to face the scenario digmedia presented. So I downplayed the expectations every chance I got: “Yes, the school he’s applied to would be a great fit for his personality, and he has the ‘stats’ to get in, but it’s always kind of a crap shoot at that level no matter how qualified you are. So he’s working on some sure things as well, including the big scholarship at the local uni.” I think it was helpful for him.</p>

<p>He did get in. One nice thing about managing expectations was that folks (including geek_son) did celebrate his admission as an accomplishment, instead of just shrugging it off as a foregone conclusion.</p>

<p>The accomplishments of very good students get taken for granted sometimes. A straight A student doesn’t really get to celebrate those great test scores and grades; it’s just what’s expected of him after a while. I think this is one of the reasons top students feel so much pressure and stress. Kids note – and some even celebrate – the top students’ failures rather than their successes. When geek_son gets his good grades, many kids and even some adults tell him that it’s only because he’s “naturally smart.” Uh, no… actually, it’s because he works his tail off while they’re socializing in study hall.</p>

<p>And athletes are the same way. About the athletes controversy… Folks, just get over yourselves. “Jock” does not equal “dumb,” and there are plenty of students who really can do it all, because they have the raw talent and the willingness to work. Many of our top athletes are also top students who are involved in student government, academic decathlon, multiple performing arts, and a tremendous amount of church involvement and volunteer work. They don’t brag about what they do; they just do it, because that’s what they are. These students are leaders in every respect, and their most important qualities are work ethic, enthusiasm, and time management. Those are qualities that will help any student in college and, more importantly, in life.</p>

<p>Mindset to have: The college which accepts you is the best college for you and the last thing you want to do is buy into the ‘My academic worth is measured by the schools that have rejected me’.</p>

<p>If that makes any sense :)</p>

<p>Eek but this is kind of scary at the same time…I’m hoping for at least one acceptance letter!</p>

<p>Talent only goes so far. Hard work is essential for continued athletic or academic achievement. </p>

<p>This year we watched a heavily recruited athlete receive zilch in continued interest from ANY colleges when they discovered she struggled to pass remedial courses. There are plenty of quality student athletes available in her sport.</p>

<p>I think this is a great thread to have brought back. Kids still have four days to apply to a few safeties before 1/1! And even more time to apply to some schools with later deadlines.</p>