RE #38 Well they’ll know she didn’t do something else that summer - like pursue a non-academic interest or get a job. I think pre-taking a course in the summer is a kind of legal cheating. It puts kids who can’t afford the courses and/or must spend the summer working at a disadvantage. And if too many kids come in over-prepared it can give bad teachers (and more importantly their bosses) the false impression that they are good teachers.
@mathmom or I suppose conversely if a teacher tries to adapt to go faster to accommodate a significant number of accelerated kids, she could be a good teacher misconstrued (by the kids not prepared at the same level) as a bad teacher…
The vast majority of highly competitive colleges much prefer to see ST’s in a broader range of disciplines. (Caltech wants Math 2 + a science test.) OTOH, the math-sci combo application is a dime a dozen, as my dad used to say. Will not stand out, particularly with no EC’s over the summer but more science classes.
If she likes Writing, then consider the Lit ST.
Otherwise, just not a good plan for highly competitive colleges, IMO.
My kid had to list her summer activities on her application. I believe she was also asked to list all schools attended and courses taken. I don’t remember whether this was on the common app or on the supplemental questions for some of those schools. I wouldn’t be surprised if she was also asked about summer activities in her interviews.
@postmoden, I’m not defending the assessment system, but that is indeed how assessments work and it’s why pre-taking the class is rather gaming the system because it essentially gives the student a second chance at all those earlier exams which the other students don’t have a second chance to improve. We aren’t just measuring mastery, we’re measure speed of mastery. Should seniors be allowed to go back and re-take their freshman finals? AP spanish students re-taking spanish 2 exams, calculus students getting a do-over on algebra1, because all that matters is how well they mastered the material in the end? Maybe we should replace the current system with high stakes junior year exams, but that is not how students are currently being assessed.
College STEM classes are harder and faster moving than these hs classes she needs to pre-take. How would she be successful in college, is she planning to pre-take everything over the summer? I think colleges have a legitimate interest in whether a student is likely to be able to keep up and master the material in the allotted time frame.
@mathmom, Forgive me for asking again, but how is this different than SAT prep, reading books on the subject, or watching video classes? Are those “legal cheating” also?
Respectfully, I don’t know why that matters, since it is the kids we are concerned about. All bosses benefit from having good employees whether they earned it or not, and all teachers benefit from having good students.
Not sure why they are mutually exclusive, can’t she do both?
I suppose it is possible, but I don’t know of any requirement to list all enrichment activities/audits/not for credit. Can others confirm?
@mathyone , I have to ask yet again – does that apply to students who read books, watch videos, do test prep, have tutors, or any other enrichment activity to get a leg up – is that “gaming the system”?
I’m concerned that the OP is actually a symptom of a larger problem. Now that “law” and “finance” are no longer seen as the big meal tickets out there, the focus has turned to STEM. However, not everyone is really cut out for STEM, despite the dollar signs in parents’ eyes. So we end up with this kind of master-planning and pre-taking and molding kids who might not really be that interested or talented. It doesn’t do any favors for the kid long term, any more than the last generation did favors for the crowd of disaffected lawyers “opting out” in Gen X.
It seems to me that the OP had planned on her daughter taking summer physics in order to bump up a grade in AP Physics during the year. Meanwhile, somehow the daughter would do fine in AP Chemistry without that (?) but would take both SAT-2 tests in those courses in June. This original plan really misses the forest for the trees, specifically if the writing-skilled daughter would be putting off taking History or Spanish.
To answer the question, do kids sometimes not get all their requested courses in high school, I believe the answer is a resounding “yes” - and there is often a workaround or a new path that turns out better than ever. (For instance, my oldest was not able to get into his assigned level of Latin with his level of History in 10th grade, but they allowed him to take what ended up being more appropriate levels of both which worked out.)
Some basic points, I think:
- A break in language would look weird - you can explain it, but it looks weird.
- Colleges want to see humanities classes and breadth; the marginal plus of another science vs a humanities course is really debatable, even for MIT (which I attended and where my child was admitted this spring, so I have read about it extensively).
- We don't know why the school objected - was this student perhaps not "recommended" for both classes due to ability or fear of it being too much when both were taken at once? Was it a schedule conflict? Are only seniors allowed to take two science courses?
- Regardless of whether it's dishonest or advantageous or anything else, having a kid pre-take a class is at the very least a vote of no-confidence in their ability to do well during the year, AND a loss of an opportunity to do something unschoollike during the summer.
- I agree with those above who said that the Chem and Physics just aren't that hard objectively for anyone who thinks s/he can be a STEM major. So this student should think long and hard about choices if the courses are hard or too fast for her even at the HS level.
I’m sure that elite colleges fully expect that their applicants have done some SAT prep. So I don’t see that as mis-representing the applicant’s ability. Also, as I explained earlier, the SAT is (or should be) a one and done affair.
As far as tutoring goes, I think it depends on the extent. I don’t see occasional tutoring as any issue, as college kids needing help would utilize office hours, help centers, and possibly some tutoring as well. And high school kids could also see the teacher for extra help. Wealthy kids with many regular hours of private tutors who are most likely doing a lot of the work for them, and are basically there to ensure high grades no matter what the student learns, yes, I think that’s unethical. I think the question you need to ask is, will this be sustainable in a college environment and is it propping up the student’s grades to an extent that is not representing how they would perform in a college environment?
I think omitting a major summer activity when asked about summer activities would clearly be unethical and possibly grounds for rescinding admittance or diploma. I wouldn’t want my child to lie on a college application and live with a cloud over the education. The same goes for omitting schools attended and courses taken, when asked to list them.
I’m not a big fan of prepping for the SAT either, but at least our high school runs evening classes that are subsidized or free for kids who can’t afford them. They also have free tutors and all the teachers offer extra help sessions. To me there’s a huge difference getting a tutor to help you if you get stuck in the middle of the course and taking the entire course over the summer for no grade and then repeating it for a grade. Duh, it’s easier the second time around.
I’ve got no problem with taking academic courses in the summer, but I’d prefer to seem them used for kids to explore new areas, take something so they can take more advanced courses in high school (some of our students take pre-Calc in summer school so they can take Calc junior year), or to take courses that aren’t offered in their high school. (My son took Computer Graphics at Columbia one summer for example).
@mathyone, I respectfully suggest you read this statement you typed and reconsider it. Most tutors have ethics and most parents want their kids to learn, not for someone to do the work for them. The kids have to take the tests, after all, and I think most teachers can tell a kids work from a pro’s. Since you can’t define the line, essentially you have just stated that you think private tutoring is unethical. Do you really think that?
Your use of the phrase “Wealthy kids” as a pejorative is very uncalled for. Many parents scrape together money or do without things to get their kids the tools they need to succeed and achieve their goals. And yes, people with money have opportunities others don’t. Unfair? Yes. Unethical? No.
You’ll have to provide some evidence that adcoms would consider auditing a class a major summer activity, or that they require everything a kid does be listed. Can you show me one example of admission being rescinded for something like not listing an audited class at a private enrichment program? If you do I will mea culpa; if not, I think the idea is ridiculous and unfounded.
@skieurope and @mathyone can you point me to a school district policy that restricts a kid from taking a course in the summer? The course is paid by the parent, not used for credit…For what I know, they don’t care what the kid does outside of school.
I think some missed this: “it seems that AP Physics 1 does not prepare them for Physics subject test.” That makes it seem this is about the test. And this kid took chem over the prior summer, to prep for regular chem at the hs.
I don’t have an issue with the summer course, if it enhances her learning and the experience in the hs class. For some kids, it can mean tackling the broader issues because they already understand the basic concepts and tools. My kids’ experiences in chem and physics would have benefitted from some prior exposure.
But it nags me that OP is focusing on the grade, how much easier an A would be, and the test. I don’t see that she’s planning to report the summer courses. So it all sounds like gaming- and that’s different than a jump start.
@Mathmom I am confused – is it ok to take academic courses over the summer or not? Don’t you think your son’s HS CS courses were made a degree easier by his having taken the Columbia class?
Now we are really splitting hairs and being judgmental, IMHO. Why should you care if the parent thinks the prep class will help their kid get an A or not? “Report the summer courses” to who?
Wouldn’t colleges want all frosh applicants to either self-report or submit transcripts (depending on how they collect high school records) for all high school and college course work taken? So the summer high school physics course would be shown in the student’s high school record that college admission readers see.
^^^It’s a private enrichment course. Certainly anything for credit on a transcript would be different.
You wouldn’t list courses taken at Berlitz, would you? Even though Spanish is taught in HS? Or the above mentioned computer graphics course (which might be one run by Columbia or the one run by IDTech at Columbia) - you wouldn’t have to list that unless you wanted to?
I did not see anywhere in the common app that you have to list all academic classes (not for credit) that you took out of school. My kid took several HSSP classes as well as one math prep class (which was a waste anyway) but did not list any as he had more interesting things to put under activities, jobs and volunteering. He was not hiding anything! It is news to me that you have to list “everything”.
OP here…thanks to those who answered earlier…I think I got my answer earlier and I don’t see why a simple question can turn into comments as “unfair advantage” and “legal cheating”…LOL
@Postmodern thanks for the understanding…and in particular on “parents scrape together money…” It blew my mind on how people looks at a summer course as cheating…
@mathmom fortunately you do not make acceptance decision for colleges (or those that DD may apply). Thank God !!
Seems that life may have been unfair to you.
Thank you for those bringing up EC…I do not anticipate this child has any problem with EC or summer activities.
I think in life in general, having experience/practice is valued. So someone who’s done a similar project at work, will be gratefully accepted on a team to do the next project. Also, it’s a core value for most of us that practice and effort and rehearsing are a good idea.
But we all know on CC that it’s about the college admissions game (at least for some kids) and then the question really is, “how can I make myself (my kid) get an edge over the next guy in this opaque and difficult system?”
A big difference comes out when the person doesn’t have a good answer for, “how will she keep up when she gets into the desired STEM program” and “what’s so hard about HS chemistry if she’s taking the recommended level unless her grade expectations are unreasonable”…?
In my years reading CC, there’s an ethos where some kinds of competitive edges are considered more acceptable than others. As an Honors Science teacher, I take a dim view of kids secretly pre-taking a course so that they will seem smarter than the other kids. However, I am overjoyed when (as happened yesterday!) - a kid comes and says, “do you have any topics I should make sure I’m strong on before starting” or “could I borrow a book ahead of time to make sure the course is the right level for me and get a start on the reading” - for one thing, this go-getting-ness is available to all of my students.
In a Letter of Recommendation, knowing a kid pre-took a course (and I’m not an idiot; I ask what kids did in the summers) would be a “but”. Because you have to put a kid’s grades and achievements into context to have integrity as a writer/teacher.
I had a student last year in Honors Chemistry who had tutoring probably five hours a day, and really was doing that money–achievement churn because she seemed to have very little innate understanding or even desire to learn the material. Certainly she exhibited no desire to think about interesting/complex problems, which is really a hallmark of success in an Honors course. She was earning a B or maybe B+ because of a combination of As on the homework that she may or may not have actually done herself and Cs on quizzes/tests - and decided to drop the course. She’s probably the most textbook example of this grade-grubbing-tutoring picture that I’ve taught in my career.
Interestingly, I’ve written successful LoR for kids who had Cs in science or math with me, but who were just interesting kids with a real passion for learning and a kind of curiosity and pleasantness that you can’t buy (I don’t think 
).
“List all other secondary schools you have attended since 9th grade, including academic summer schools or enrichment programs hosted on a secondary school campus:”