We need more info on the testing.
On TWIV (This Week in Virology podcast) there was discussion of how some tests are “positive” because the test detects remnants of virus – which is not the same as the person having an active infection (with infectious transmissible virus).
It was my understanding from the podcast that some of the news reports are overlooking important details about what a test is testing for, and what that actually means.
Just sharing!
Carry on!
I admire the president of Brown University speaking up. I’m lucky enough not to have either of my kids in a decision year but among my friends. there are many who simply can’t see any reason to pay $70,000 a year to have their kid login from their dining room table starting in September. My friends are looking at state universities that are more likely to be open…or having kids take a gap year.
I’d treat it much as we do with meningitis…both my kids had to show documentation of the booster before they were given a dorm assignment. I’d ask for test results (which should be much easier to get by, say, July) and then – Brown’s prez idea – expand the infirmary to treat those students who do come down with it (and transferring them to hospitals if it worsen…just like any illness is handled now). And, natch, all best practices in place.
And keep in mind that we’re 5 months away from fall semester…if you had told me 5 months ago that we would be in this situation, there’s no way i would have believed it…so we don’t know what’s ahead.
Here’s a severe plan. This just popped into my mind. What would happen if colleges set a policy that anyone who tests positive goes home for the rest of the semester? This would protect everyone else. That would also be the best incentive for students to do everything possible to avoid the virus. It’s really not that hard to avoid the virus. Wash your hands constantly and NEVER touch your face. Stay six feet apart as much as possible. And everyone has to wear a surgical or tightly woven cloth mask to prevent transmission. Those who want to can wear N95.
Not necessarily advocating this. Just floating it.
@brantly How do you get ill students home and not infect others on the journey? Some will be multiple plane rides away. Not every student has family that will drop everything to come get them. Do we ask severely ill students to drive themselves home? And many campus do not allow underclassmen cars on campus…
Students will likely sign anything to be allowed on campus but how it will actually play out is very different.
@Savvydog Lol. I had that quote in one of my posts earlier but thought it was a little over the top at the time so I removed it.
I think schools are going to give it a run for the fall. I’m hoping we’ll have a better idea about the 2nd wave by then. I’m actually more concerned about late fall, early winter when the cold/flu season kicks off. That’s when the 2nd wave of Covid might kick-off. I’d hate to see all the kids go back in August only to come back home when in November.
@MBNC1755 I believe what the Brown University president is recommending is that sick kids get treated at the college rather than returning home…first through isolation dorms, then going to the infirmary…and then transferring to a local hospital for severe cases…the last 2 steps being the same way that colleges handle illness on campus now.
If your kid had the flu, he wouldn’t get in a car and drive home…he’d be treated at the infirmary.
^^ If schools gave a heads up about this policy to parents, it might have a big impact on whether parents send their kids to that school at all, for the reasons you mention.
Would they be able to do online class from home? Would they get a medical waiver for extra time for assignments? Would they get a refund?
If the answer is “No” to any of these questions then no rational parent would sign-off on this. Might be throwing $40k down the drain for a lost semester.
How about this - Colleges should follow the state guidelines whenever the states are open. So schools will be open in the fall for in-person instruction if it’s LEGAL to do so as per the law and per the state. But the students have to sign a waiver that they chose to do in-person at their own risk, and the schools should seek legal future protection in case being sued. And the students can also do the on-line option as many schools will have this option anyway for students who can’t/won’t travel. Students who chose to do online will also sign a waiver to not suing the school for any ridiculous reason (tuition, pain and suffering b/c they had to be away from their friends. I know it sounds ridiculous but I am only half sarcastic. The lawyers will cook up any reason to make $$).
Let’s be honest, for many schools, the liability is probably the biggest concern in their mind if they were to open for in-person. And if the schools are protected from law suits, I bet that many would chose to have in-person instructions (and online option) in the fall.
Asking because I don’t know…How does school liability work for other illnesses, e.g, flu, flu pandemic(most recent 2009, 1968), meningitis, etc? Would covid-19 liability be different?
@mindfully I’m not clear why the risk in the Fall is any less than the risk this past Spring, when most institutions stopped face-to-face teaching.
Dr. Birx has said many times that the difference is they will be prepared. More testing, more therapies, and it future covid19 will not be the Tsunami that hit in March.
I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t understand how a university would have liability for students, staff, or faculty getting infected. Unless the college forbade them from wearing masks and washing their hands. Getting infected with coronavirus is a forseeable risk. Besides, nobody can prove that but for the student’s presence on the campus, he/she would not have gotten coronavirus.
I agree with you @brantly but it doesn’t stop people from trying to take advantage of the situation. We already have lawsuits because of colleges go on-line instruction, as if the schools had a choice. They didn’t, yet they get sued anyway. It’s a crazy world.
p.s And because it’s so hard to prove, it’s also very hard to disprove, that’s when good lawyers win.
My S20 is 3 months and a week from starting freshman year. Not 5 months. I’m thinking schools will need to make a go-no-go decision by mid July at the latest. Probably earlier.
As for massive testing…it’s nice but what is it really going to do…if it’s even possible. Currently, too many false negatives plus you could pass one day and fail the next. You would have to test daily. There aren’t that many tests available. It’s a struggle to even get them for healthcare workers. Until there’s a quick, inexpensive test it’s not realistic.
I’m hopeful but pessimistic. I think a lot of people here are only focused on their kids and how Covid impact very few young people. That’s only part of the equation. There’s all the other older, riskier people on-campus too. There’s travel from all over the world which could be hotspots. Then there’s the supply chain issues. Supplies and food shortages are a real thing. PPE shortages are also still a global issue.
I posed the question earlier. Why did we shut schools down in the spring but are anxious to get our kids to school in the fall if nothing has changed? There’s no vaccine, no new antiviral meds, and testing is still iffy. Nothing has changed. I understand flattening the curve but 2nd waves of pandemics seem to be worse.
The only thing we might have a better handle on is treatments but that’s not a given.
And then there’s the cold/flu season which kicks-off in October. Will Covid make a comeback then?
I’m remaining cautiously optimistic but hard to see it happening in fall.
I think getting the “all-clear” from federal/state government would give them some level of protection. If they decide to open despite what the government says then they’ll open themselves up to lawsuits.
That said, I wonder how much the decision will be based on science vs economics? At some point $ matter in the decision…or maybe it shouldn’t?
We have to be careful before doing any comparisons. Universities in the Czech Republic did open, but it may not be what one would expect. At least at some of the universities, any group classes/activities are limited to 5 students only. This pretty much means office hours, labs, etc. Many colleges advise their professors to avoid any in-person lectures. Every student has to certify that they haven’t had any Covid symptoms in the last 2 weeks. Many of the final exams will be held online.
As for the dorms, there was an outbreak in at least one of the dorms where foreign students stayed during the shut down.
Another thought is if schools must shutdown mid semester is the difficulty in bringing students home. It’s not like in early March with flights running full tilt. Airlines have drastically cut flights since then.
For residential colleges, the logistics of getting home (and exposing other people on whatever transportation is used) can be an issue. For commuter colleges, students go home every evening anyway.
Obviously, all classes must be made distance-capable (which at least some college are apparently trying to do anyway), so that those home sick of COVID-19 (or anything else) can still participate.
Also, how often would the testing be? Remember that people can be infected and contagious for several days before any symptoms, so unless testing is done every day, there will be some contagious people missed.
@chmcnm I have been looking at food chain issues but somehow did not consider the impact of colleges. Tyson’s full page statement was extremely concerning. This is another wrinkle to keep an eye on.