Schools for Straight A student who wants out of the "T20 rat race"?

Parents Forum
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According to her GC, our rising senior D is competitive for “meets need” top 20 schools, and our income qualifies her for (close to) a full ride wherever among those that she’s accepted. Great, except that she’s starting to get really rattled by the “elite” and “rat race” mentality of her elite private and doesn’t want to do “High School 2.0” (for very well-thought-out reasons).

For all of high school, she assumed she’d apply to T20s because that’s what everyone with her stats does, but now she’s not sure. Right now, she’s a junior on full scholarship. And although not many have been outright mean to her, she definitely feels excluded from large parts of the experience and has only about two or three good friends there. And although she wants an inspiring and competitive peer group, and an academically/professionally rich environment, she doesn’t want to be the only “scholarship kid” of her friend who has to work or turn down opportunities for money.

Also, she’s almost pathologically hard on herself when she gets the B+ instead of the A. And she’s friendly and very empathetic but emotionally guarded and slow to warm to new people (has 4 best friends rather than many acquaintances). She’s been through some tragedy, so she feels like a 30-year-old in a teenager’s body. So we’re both thinking she wants an environment that’s more warm than hyper-competitive. But she does rise to the level of her peers, so she needs to strike some sort of balance.

So she’s trying to find schools that fit both her academic needs and personality. And while she’s not excluding T20s, she’s pretty down on the concept right now (and obviously, needs school that let in more than 20% of students). Any suggestions for alternatives? Some more info:

–34 ACT / 4+ GPA out of 4 (5/about 315 class rank)
–engaged in mostly non-school activities: semi-competitive half marathon runner, dancer, works 40+ hours per week at a golf course during the summer, and picks up hours at a running store during the school year.
–Undecided about a major, but talents and interests skew toward psychology / sports science / writing.
–Same for a career, but looking into health and helping professions.
–She wants a city/town with non-drinking things to do, but is also pretty outdoorsy and wants to be able to run/hike for the majority of the year.
–Very self-driven and organized, so probably doesn’t need lots of support from the school.

Thanks!

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My first thought was NYU. My “not so rich, not so competitive” daughter is there and has found terrific, supportive friends. It’s not place that will hold your kids hand and it sounds like she doesn’t need that.

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And I should add while they are known for not being super generous with aid, my child has several friends who are on either full rides or significant scholarships. They can be generous with some.

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Unweighted GPA? Preferred geographies? Size of school? Big sports?

NYU is not great with aid, so a good opportunity to run the NPC at a school that doesn’t need full need to see if it is likely to be affordable https://www.nyu.edu/financial.aid/misc/npc/ NPCs may not be accurate in certain situations though, e.g., divorced parents, parents own a business/other properties/farm

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@4gsmom , thanks for the tip about NYU! In so many ways, it’d be a great fit for her, but she’d never seriously considered it because of its reputation for aid. But we’ll have to run the NPC and give it a closer look, if there’s a chance she can get money.

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The most important schools for your daughter to get on her list are the sure things. Schools that absolutely will accept her, are affordable, that will provide her what she wants in the next stage of her academic life and that she’ll enjoy. With her stats, she’ll certainly get half of those things. She may have to be flexible and “deal” with the others.

Really, coming up with a list of TT or Ivy’s is easy peasy. To try to decide between Applying to Duke or Brown. Which 4-5 out of the 20 to apply. Discussing the merits and drawbacks of that grouping is quite the privilege. Not as fun and it’s real work assessing Manhattan College vs Duquesne and whether you can do SUNY. Maritime. You often don’t find the sweeping narratives about these schools that tend to cater to the local crowd. But sometimes they are your best bet to get into certain oversubscribed programs at a very good price. I saw many many international students graduating with a CS degree at Sacred Heart. They’ll be working making 6 figures in s few years and will be some of the very few kids making more than their annual college costs right out of school. They get it.

So if there is stress about the TT, in many ways, there is more in finding the right affordable school because you have to make your own path. Just about anyone can spout off the names of the schools, not necessarily in the TT but schools like them. They have the name recognition.

That it is even possible to afford those top schools because you are eligible for FA, means you can do more than entertain the thought of applying to them as lottery tickets. If your parents can’t or won’t pay what the schools think they should, you basically no chance of going there. None. Zero, zip zilch. So a lot of those schools are completely off the table for many kids right from the get go.

The focus for your DD is to find schools that are going to be welcoming her with open arms and money. They are going to want that 34 ACT and great grades and rigorous prep. They are going to PAY her for them. Instead of making her go through the gymnastics and most of the time, a charade for nothing.

My youngest had stats similar to your DD. Right off the bat, he had free tuition options ON THE TABLE. Two Automatic free rides. They weren’t the schools he was hearing about. But he didn’t even have to dig to have those. SUNY offers free tuition to STEM majors for NY high school grads in the top 10% of the class. So for him,there was very little to do… unless he wanted more.

And more he did want. It wasn’t enough to just pick one of those choices. He WANTED to look st some of the schools that were rolling off the tongues of his classmates. He wanted to see Note Dame With the Touchdown Jesus, not the grand old lady in Paris. (Yeah, sad, right, especially given what happened). He wanted to see Emory, Wake, UVA, UNC, Duke. What about them Ivy’s, and I’m not talking about horticulture. Me, I was pretty much done at that point being the Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe, and he was the last one.

So your DD can skip the entire TT Gauntlet. You can do the research in terms of looking for the unsung schools that will pay for her to go there. They won’t have the luster of HPY and not necessarily be in the locations she wants, but, hell, I found a bunch right with a half hour of Manhattan with no trouble at all. So she doesn’t have to go to the deserts of New Mexico, though, you know what, that was an option too!

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@Mwfan1921 , thanks for chiming in. Her unweighted’s about a 3.8, and although she’d prefer somewhere out west (California, Colorado, PNW, anywhere with mountains/water nearby), she’s realistic about having to compromise there. Re size: ideally she wants something medium to large, but not gigantic like a UIUC. She’s kind of take it or leave it about sports—nice to have, but she’d rather be running/out in nature herself on a Saturday morning.

Re money: definitely running NPCs everywhere we look, especially for the choices that don’t meet need. Thankfully, she’s pretty clear-eyed and detached about the process, and wants 0 debt, so she’s not likely to fall in love with somewhere she can’t afford.

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I would not recommend a city like NYC for a kid who does not want to miss out on fun with friends because she’s on a budget but the friends are not.
I’d think of a school like Grinnell, where there’s just…Iowa. Nothing and nowhere to spend your money on really outside of campus. Doesn’t check the box for city/town with non drinking things to do, but if she’s on a tight budget, she needs to look for her fun on campus anyway, so look for the tight intellectual community on campus rather than for the fun town/city - that fun costs money, and is not covered by FA.

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Are you looking for a free ride? Including room & board? If you can help with cost, what is that amount?

I would apply to Stanford, it’s less for a student I know who was accepted than our state flagship and this student will attend Stanford.

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The thing is if you need the aid and qualify for close to a full ride at the T20s then I’m not sure how you don’t try your absolute hardest to try to get into one of them. Certainly have safeties as all of the schools are very competitive but if you need money, a school like NYU may not be an option (which also btw is very competitive). I can tell you my son is attending Emory which meets full need and didn’t have perfect stats though they were stilll very good.

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@cptofthehouse Free tuition isn’t a free ride though.

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My alternative suggestion, based on what you’ve said about your daughter and the type of environment she is looking for.: Encourage her to look at LACs. She will be with similar students in terms of academics, but many LACS are known for being collaborative rather than competitive. They are focused on undergrads. Research is common. The smaller environment means students get to know each other and form good relationships with both students and professors, right from the start.

Some LACs are very well known and difficult to get into. Most have a very good reputation, with high rates of students going to grad school. (Many professors encourage their own kids to go to LACs.) They are in a range of areas. Some, like Macalester, Swarthmore, Haverford and Bryn Mawr, are located in or on the edges of cities. Others, like Carleton and Bowdoin are in small towns not far from cities. Others, like Williams, Kenyon, Hamilton and Middlebury, are in more rural locations with easy outdoor access. The Claremont Consortium in CA has five colleges which enable students to take classes at the other schools, giving it a big school feel, if that’s what she wants. Colorado College has easy access to the outdoors and works on a block plan which some students love. Other excellent LACs that come to mind, located around the country, are Whitman and Reed in WA and OR, Grinnell in Iowa, and Bates and Colby in Maine. There’s also the Mass Consortium, comprised of Amherst, Hampshire, Mt Holyoke and Smith (both women’s colleges) and UMass Amherst, so that students really can get the most out of both big and small colleges.

Your daughter has to compromise on something, and for a lot of kids, location is the first thing to go. So many kids think at first that they want to be in or near a city, or on a specific coast. In truth, most students spend their time on campus, because that’s where their food, friends, and beds are.

If she looks at some LACs, she will find many options all over the country. Some would offer big merit awards with stats like hers. LACs offer rigorous but personalized education. They are a great place for someone who wants to be challenged but who also wants to feel like they are part of something.

ETA: Most of the LACs mentioned here offer very good financial aid.

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Here are some non-T20 ideas, none will meet all criteria, some don’t meet full need (and may be need aware) so run NPCs. I have not included any larger schools, like UIUC…including those would open up more options.

Medium:
U Denver
Santa Clara
U San Diego

Smaller:
Pomona/CMC/Pitzer/Scripps - each part of 5 school consortium so feels larger, about 6K students in total, campuses contiguous
Univ of Puget Sound
Occidental
Colorado College

Breaking current geography prefs:
Tufts
Boston College
College of William and Mary
Macalester College
Wellesley
Bryn Mawr
Vassar
Dickinson
Villanova
U Rochester

Lastly, assume you live in Illinois–UIUC seems not high on the list, but does she qualify for Illinois Commitment?https://admissions.illinois.edu/commitment

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I have to agree with what @collegemom9 said. If you can afford the Top20 you really should try to get in. Many on CC don’t have the funds for the Top20. That being said she may not get into any of them. Nothing is guaranteed about the Top20. So in the end it might be a moot point.

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For West, outdoorsy, financial aid, I hear good things about University of Utah, but don’t know specifics. May be worth checking out.

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Look at honors colleges at flagships and LACs in the South depending on what size school she wants to attend. Temperate climates mean she can run and/or golf pretty much all year long. All of the Southern schools (plus Texas if you consider that Southern) have great honors colleges even if the overall reputation of the university is lower. I’ve also heard great things about Arizona State. Most larger schools will have a large number of students who don’t drink simply because, due to their size, they’ll have a large number of students who will fit any profile. https://publicuniversityhonors.com/new-top-programs-by-category/

For LACs, look at those “Colleges That Change Lives.” Those in the temperate South include Southwestern University and Austin College in Texas; Hendrix College in Arkansas; Rhodes and Millsaps in Mississippi; Birmingham-Southern in Alabama; Agnes Scott in Georgia; Eckerd and New College of Florida; Guilford in North Carolina; University of Lynchburg and Emory and Henry College in Virginia; and Centre College in Kentucky. https://ctcl.org/

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No, free tuition is not a free ride, I well know. But for those $70k+ schools,<$20 net sounds pretty good to me. Actually, better deal than the half off full cost that Tulane offered.

Two schools from which my kids got full tuition deals are local, so they could have commuted with most living expenses a sunk cost.

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@chicago5010. Tell your daughter to look into sports physical therapy. Knowing running and dance can make her a great career. Plus she works in golf and that’s the physical therapy niche trifecta :golf:?. I treat dancers, runners etc in my sports medicine practice and a good dance therapist is hard to find and very much in demand at least in Chicago and the suburbs.

If you are actually going to school in the city then CPS can have full scholarships for Northwestern and UChicago.

Does she want to do a dance program or just want to join like a dance club at college?

Lots of suburban kids are going to places like Alabama for full rides. Look south since many schools are doing the same.

I would start to look at schools in all ranges. Anything T 20 is a crapshoot but still money is there. Anything T21 and lower is where you will start seeing half rides to full rides. So…

First go through schools that meet her criteria. Also look at Lacs
. Here are some,
https://ctcl.org/

Anything below T30 will most likely be a safety to some degree for her. But some absolutely great schools with merit also.

Fit and feel is more important then rank to me.

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Google for the list of schools that meet need, but are NOT need blind. If she has strong stats, she is the type of student those schools like. If you need a lot of FA, the problem with some of the schools suggested here is that they won’t meet need. But visit if you can. Lots of people will suggest the CTCL schools, but we found them to be a mixed bag, especially for a high stats kid when we visited.

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You may want to check out the colleges that change lives list for ideas. My kid with similar stats will attending a state flagship honors college program (ACT range 17-32). The thing about that is with 25% being higher achievers than that, it’s still a larger potential academic peer group than many smaller high stat schools that may have a very particular quirky vibe and a higher socio-economic level.

The new york times has a great series on SES info for schools. If you google “New York University average family income” you will get “Economic diversity and student outcomes at NYU” from the new york times. You can plug in any school.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/new-york-university

So the average family income at NYU is $159,000 a year and 11% come from the top 1% (family earning 630K or more).