Schools is sucking creativity & pointless

LSkaiWalk · October 4, 2009, 10:40pm

im a senior and getting ready to apply to college…

and i was thinking.

like basically most kids, i don’t like school.

i go to a “good” public school, and i find what i am learning to be mainly pointless stuff.
i probably already forgot 80% of the stuff that i learned last year. its just sucking my creativity, and teaching me these rules / formulas. the school / college system is basically designed to prepare students to become college proffesors. we’re in the 21st century now, and innovation and everything is what we should teach kids in school. our education system is maybe even bad for kids and not preparing them at all to be good citizens that think and are creative. we’re teaching them to live in the 20th century.

yeah sure, spending 6 hours a day for the past 12 years has taught me some basic logic, how to write an essay, a bunch of history facts that i mainly all forgot, and the basics of science and how the world works… but… in that time i couldve learned that stuff way better faster… school schoul be teaching creativity, rather than knowledge mostly i think for this new generation.

anyways, i think im gonna major in business…

and

A. id like to hear your oppinion on what i think about highschools.
B. is college the same? im looking forward to living with a bunch of new students / learning to be independent / and learning the basics about business so college actually doesnt sound that bad
C. what colleges are being more innovative and modern in their learning techniques that i may like?? our colleges basically the same as they were 50 years ago? or are colleges evolving to meet the new times?? what college could fit me thats innovatovative and new age?? im a 3.3 unweighted, 2010 SAT, great ECs students. 3.5 weighted.

thankss

Yurtle · October 5, 2009, 12:06am

1.) Try taking a Gap Year. Go abroad. Do something different.
2.) It’s partially true, what you say about High School. It will NOT however, fly as an excuse to the adcoms for anything.
3.) College is generally not the same.
4.) I wonder if business is right for you…it is not something you can do on creativity alone.
5.) innovative. Not innovatovative.

starbright · October 5, 2009, 12:22am

I hear what you are saying about education. It’s been said before by many others too. Look up Sir Ken Robinson on TED and see his clip on this very subject.

I think if you are looking for your future education to open your mind with diverse perspectives, to lead you to creative thought, to help you generate expansive ideas and think outside the box (vs. train you to follow rules, memorize a lot, and jump through hoops)…I think getting a bachelor’s in business is probably a bad idea for you.

If what you really mean by your post, is you don’t want knowledge for its own sake (since you don’t want to train to be a professor), but instead want practical skills and a lot of formulas, rules and frameworks that are taught efficiently and pragmatic so you can get an entry level job in today’s market, well then, that is something else entirely. And fortunately for you, you will love business school. I know from where I speak (I am a business school professor). Sorry if I sound cynical. I love what i teach but I think an undergrad in business is not education for the 21st century.

noimagination · October 5, 2009, 12:39am

I wrote a long post on this topic [url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/730176-underworked-american-child-economist-12.html]here[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/730176-underworked-american-child-economist-12.html]here[/url</a>] (post 224). The thread promptly died, but some of what I said may have relevance in this thread.

LSkaiWalk · October 5, 2009, 2:15am

thanks for the responses.

im looking for both: mainly leading me to creative thought, help me generate ideas, & think outside the box, but id also like something where i can get a job at the same time, which i think the creative thought part would come in handy.

i was thinking business would add some innovation / creative thought with some practicalities. im glad im talking to a business professor.

u dont think a business major would be good for the 21st century?? what would u reccomend i do / go into.

thanks again everyone.

i watched and enjoyed that TED video. thanks!

LasMa · October 5, 2009, 2:37am

As long as there are businesses, there will be demand for business majors. However, I think you need to focus a bit on what exactly you want to do.

Do you want to start your own business? You need first to think about what product or service you have to offer. Successful businesses happen when someone has an idea about a product, and then starts to business to sell it, not the other way around. Bill Gates didn’t think “Gee, I want to start a business; what can I sell?” He had a passion for the product and the business grew out of it.

You might also be interested in marketing, perhaps the most creative of the business majors.

On the other hand, you probably want to steer clear of accounting and finance. The industry rules are set for those disciplines, backed up by federal law. “Creative accounting” usually means fraudulent accounting, often resulting in jail time.

momofthreeboys · October 5, 2009, 7:32am

I think your feelings about high school are not so unusual. My son wrote his essay about what he disliked in high school and what he was looking forward to in college, so as you “talk” about yourself make sure you keep some perspective and your eye on the goal or what will get you excited and not the past. Think about what classes you did like in high school and think about which ones you really disliked. Which classes did you do well in, which ones were difficult or a grind. My son wasn’t enthralled with math classes, while he had to get one under his belt as part of the core curriculum in college he is now an upperclassman and there are “no more” math classes. My son has very much enjoyed his marketing classes and his econ classes and while he declared English as his major, he is now double majoring in English and Business with a Marketing concentration. I’m not saying that this path is for you, I’m saying that most likely you will find something that intrigues you. Look at it this way, high school is about needs: you need to take this class and this class and that class to graduate and go to college College is more about wants after the core curriculum: I want to take this class, I want to take that class. There are also colleges out there that don’t have a core curriculum. High schools are pretty much all the same…colleges are more diverse in approach. Make sure you find a college that works for you. If you just can’t envision yourself sitting in a classroom next fall, then maybe take a year off.

SDonCC · October 5, 2009, 7:33am

I am a parent, and couldn’t agree with you more. I look at my daughter who is very bright but totally turned off by school. I don’t blame her. It’s a grind. I am hoping that college will be different and I keep telling her that, but we’ll see… Although at one admissions session at a top LAC, the officer said that high school is a “prison,” and that college will be better!

Queen_s_Mom · October 5, 2009, 7:42am

Interesting. I was just discussing this with H this morning. I was talking about middle school, however. It is as if the very purpose is to ■■■■■■ a child’s creativity.

mathmom · October 5, 2009, 8:48am

I think you might like to look at colleges where co-ops and internships are a big part of the program. I think you’ll find college more fun than high school though, even in the less practical courses.

oldfort · October 5, 2009, 8:49am

I guess I don’t feel the same way as some posters on this thread. When I think of education I always compare it to my daughters’ ballet training. In the beginiing of each class, they do over an hour of bar, jumps, basic routines. They do them over and over again until they could do them in their sleep. For them it doesn’t matter what class they go to (intermediate or advance), they still do the same warm ups. They could go to another part of the world, and they would still practice the same steps. As they get those basic steps down, then they start to get creative about combining those step and try some amazing turns or lifts that no one has done before. They are not allowed to take jazz or modern dance until they have had a few years of ballet training. The reason is many dance steps originated from ballet.

It is the same with our education. From elementary school to high school, students need to learn the basic - math, writing, history, science. If you want to go into science, you need to know what to do in a lab - must follow rules or you could get hurt or the result may not be valid. To go into higher math in college, you need to have your basic foundation down (algebra, geometry, calculus). Even if you are not going into humanities, it’s important to know some history and able to write well.

There are students who are more advanced than others and are able to master basic information much faster (just like some dancers). Unfortunately, with our public education there isn’t enough fund to accomendate different types learning. Better public or private high schools are able to accomendate different student’s pace, but most schools are not.

As I have posted on another thread, when our D2 was in 2nd/3rd grade, her private school decided to stop teaching basic math and decided to try new math. She never mastered doing simple math calculations in her head, whereas D1 had mad minute (how many problems you could do in one minute) everyday in 3rd grade. D2 understood “theory” or idea on how to do various calculations, but she was not able to do it very well when she actually had to do it on paper. Yes, it was tedious to learn how to add and subtract, but without that basic knowledge she struggled in algebra later on. We ended up sending her to Kumon to learn those basic math when she was in 5th/6th grade. In 6 months, she became one of top math students in her class.

In college it is very different. D1 said that she is getting pushed to her limit. On her exams she doesn’t see the same problems as on her take home problem sets. she is expected to take what she’s learned and take it one step further. She used to get A/A+ on her math tests in high school, but in college it’s no longer the case because often the test material is very unexpected. She said without knowing the material very well, it is very hard to get above the median.

I tell D1 that in college that’s when she needs to combine the ballet techniques she’s worked so hard to master (arabesque, chasse, jete…) and start to come up with her own dance.

younghoss · October 5, 2009, 9:13am

An unsettling feeling is common at your age. Sometimes schools don’t appear to be offering what you think you will need, but one doesn’t always know what the future holds.
I recommend you work on spelling and grammar, as that will strongly improve another person’s first impression of you. If you give the impression you have the grammar of a 6th grader, you may have difficulty convincing a school or employer that you are creative. It may not sound fair, but if an employer has 10 qualified prospective employees for one job, something has to “tip the scale”. Appearing bright and well-spoken might make the difference. If you use the phrase “schools is pointless” that doesn’t make the best first impression, if of course English is your primary language.

sptch · October 5, 2009, 9:32am

As long as we focus on test results school will be memorize and regurgitate. Yes, the Asians do better on tests in math and science but their schools, too, get them to memorize and regurgitate. Interestingly enough, I attended a seminar for teachers and the person who lead it (I forget his name) had a contract with the Japanese school powers that be to show them how to incorporate creativity and higher level thinking skills, since their kids could ace tests, but most couldn’t think outside the box or be creative.

mantori.suzuki · October 5, 2009, 9:47am

I find Japanese people to be highly creative, actually, but the culture requires one to stifle that creativity in formal settings, in favor of conformity. To express a creative solution to a problem in the classroom or in a business meeting could be seen as disagreeing with your teacher or boss, which could cause him to lose face.

vinceh · October 5, 2009, 9:52am

Creativity without mastery of the fundamentals is chaos. Oldfort is 100% correct in his ballet example. Two years ago S2 had the opportunity to participate in a music master class with a world renowned flutist. As we had to travel a great distance, we ended up arriving a bit earlier than the other participants. We waited outside the room and listened for 45 minutes as this famous musician practiced scales over and over again. He is able to play exceptionally well because he has mastered the drudgery that are the fundamentals. Tiger Woods is able to create golf shots that others can’t even envision because he has mastered the basic techniques of golf.

As for creativity in business, the same rules apply that always have. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates still have to play by the laws of Physics. You still need a product that people want and you have to sell it for more than it costs. Those rules of distribution and accounting don’t change, the internet bubble of 2000 and the current financial debacle only reinforce that. As LasMa pointed out, violating the rules of finance and accounting only leads to Enron and Bernie Madoff.

jessiehl · October 5, 2009, 10:56am

As someone who does research, I will say that you can’t expect to do anything innovative in a field until you have a knowledge base in that field. How are you going to build on what has been done (or change what has been done, or whatever) unless you already understand what has been done?

I did not find that college sucked my creativity, or that it was all about rules and formulas.

But I did have to learn some rules and formulas (while also learning the theory behind them to some degree). I couldn’t work in any given lab until I learned that lab’s protocols. You need formulas to solve a classical mechanics problem or to figure out the ingredients needed to synthesize a certain amount of a compound. And this holds for the humanities, too - if I’m going to analyze the current political situation in a certain country, I need to remember basic facts about the country’s history. In an art class, I have to memorize some basic techniques of working with the medium before I can create something wonderful.

MiamiDAP · October 5, 2009, 11:09am

School gives you set of skills, which you can use creatively or otherwise. Both type of people are needed at work places, people who are more analytical / creative and people who are better with using procedures. Most jobs will envolve both.

starbright · October 5, 2009, 11:35am

Can you be innovative later, after a business degree? Yes. But that is different than looking for an education that enables creativity.

Yes one needs to absorb a huge lot of information in a relatively short time in college. But there is a fundamental challenge between efficiency and how its taught and absorbed, and what one learns to do with the knowledge after 16 years of grinding. It can also depend tremendously upon one’s area of study as well. I just think the student body in business schools (and how undergraduate business school is taught) is the antithesis of education, and I’ve seen the same pattern at all tier of school).

For the most part, my students are amazing instrumental grinders, not intellectuals with a curiosity for learning. On average, they can obtain great grades but lack the abstract conceptual thinking that will help them innovate later on. They can memorize like you would not believe. They have the formulas down pat. They can recite every powerpoint slide ever given to them, and list the 10 this, and the 10 that. They can pull all nighters with ease as needed. They are attuned to the rules and can play them extremely well as they have done for 12-15 years so far…which is what often got them into college. I’m not sure if after 15 years of that they can switch the light on and think differently.

Often they never read outside their area just for fun. Often they don’t have time to explore, or even ‘learn’ in the true sense of the word. They are so busy getting by, they have not time to digest, process and innovate in their thinking as they go. They don’t ask thought provoking questions and focus instead on what will be tested. Ask them to compare and contrast competing ideas, or integrate them into a meaningful whole, and they look at you like you are speaking a different language. Get them to critically evaluate what they are looking at, without a set of rules to follow, and many can’t do it. Ask them to produce a final product without a rubric, and they get paralyzed because they aren’t sure how to maximize the grade for it. Ask them to apply what they have learned in class to a novel or real life situation, and they start reciting the notes again without getting the real point of the case. Much of the time they can tell you the formula for a correlation, but ask them to explain what a correlation means in conceptual terms, and they don’t understand the question. Some of the best students in terms of ‘grades’ are the worst at the above, and maybe 20% of the class are truly intellectual or leading thinkers (often without the top grades, but they have deep and curious minds who care more about learning than what grades they will get).

mantori.suzuki · October 5, 2009, 11:41am

starbright’s post reminds me why the world would be a better place if all leaders, in business and otherwise, got their undergraduate degrees at St. John’s College or similar school where “learning how to think” and “learning how to learn” are prized above “learning what will get you a job”. I have often stated my belief that most so-called education in America today is really just job training, and that’s no good for our future.

ncmentor · October 5, 2009, 12:03pm

Not all schools are alike so look for a match for who you are. I see your form CA - so I would recommend that this might be a good year to look at private liberal arts schools. The state schools are as you know trying to adjust to changes in budgets on the fly and I can’t imagine that a creativity comes from that constant stress.

My S explored a lot, and many of the schools on his list were not ones I would have considered if it wasn’t for the fact that he knew exactly what he wanted (heavy student involvement, and…). In the end he had tons of great schools to choose from and choose the one that he felt was right for him. He is very happily challenged and overworked. Hang in and try and find a place that fits you.

Schools is sucking creativity & pointless

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