Science without Math?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Is this an oxymoron? Is it possible to pursue science without math? </p>

<p>Anyone have any suggestions on how best to guide someone who has an extremely high IQ and is absolutely brilliant in everything EXCEPT math??? What to do? He’s a technical wiz, all science comes easily, his writing is stunning…but math? He can do well with it but he has to work at it and gets frustrated. Yet, all the careers in science involve a lot of math! Why are the colleges so segregated? It seems that they are either liberal arts -or- science and if the student wants science, the math goes with it. Is it possible to pursue science without pursuing math? We’re looking at some that offer interdisciplinary approaches, in the hope that it might work better for him.</p>

<p>I read that at the higher IQ levels sometimes the person is ‘unbalanced.’ Example, from <a href=“Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos”>Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos;

<p>“Can Intelligence Be Measured With a Single Number? Yes and no. One of the most serious criticisms of using a single number to assess intelligence is that people may be stronger in certain areas such as verbal skills, logical aptitude or spatial visualization than in others. Drs. Richard Feynmann and Albert Einstein would be examples of geniuses who were extremely strong mathematically while being relatively weak verbally.”</p>

<p>Usually, or at least so says the stereotype, a person will be either strong verbally or strong in math AND science. But what about verbal and science, but not math? It may just be his perfectionism - he is so accustomed to getting everything so easily. I know that perfectionism is a cognitive error and I’m trying to help him let go of that. He is well balanced socially and emotionally…a remarkably well-rounded kid…just doesn’t like math! And this could keep him from succeeding in his area of interest: science and technology.</p>

<p>There is another thread about IQ, and how sometimes it’s better for the child not to know. Well, my son already knows and it is a mixed blessing. Because his IQ is so high, I don’t know whether to keep encouraging him, because I know he CAN excel in math, or do I encourage him to accept the possibility that because he is so intelligent in so many other areas, he just might not have much left over for math (the opposite of Einstein & Feynman). It may be a mental block but I don’t know how to help him thru it. Otoh, I don’t want to pressure him to excel in EVERYTHING and feed his tendency towards perfectionism, when it may be that his intelligence simply is not in that area. What makes it difficult is that he is SUCH a science and technology geek. His level of understanding of computer programming and all things technical/scientific makes it really hard to comprehend why he isn’t just a total math wiz too. It’s not that he’s BAD at math, but his math skills are definitely below his other skills. It just doesn’t seem to ‘click’ the way everything else does for him.</p>

<p>I’d appreciate any advice on how best to guide him.</p>

2

<p>Scientific research these days is all about math. I can’t think of any branch of science that doesn’t at least require a deep knowledge of statistical analysis.</p>

<p>How about the philosophy of science, science history, or science journalism?</p>

3

<p>For all levels of science beyond high school and perhaps intro college courses, math play an integral role. Math tends to be lighter in the biological sciences than the physical sciences, but high levels of bio and bio research certainly require math. It’s not colleges or society being mean and making students in the sciences learn math; math is an essential part of science, and it is not possible to pursue and learn a science (again, above a basic level) without high levels of math. It’s like an English major who wants to read but not write. The two are connected. </p>

<p>Your son is still in high school, I take it? In that case, be careful not to dismiss his ability to do math. Interests and abilities can shift and develop when entering college. And remember, there’s nothing wrong with working a little harder to get to where you want to be.</p>

4

<p>He’s in 12th grade but was homeschooled and started attending community college in 10th grade. So age-wise he’s in 12th but essentially is going to cc part-time.</p>

<p>I think what happened was, that we didn’t use the right approach in teaching him math and he developed an aversion to it. This kid was mutliplying 4 x 8 at age 4, in his head, for fun! And he zipped thru both Algebra II and Trig in 3 months. So he CAN do it if he sets his mind to it. But it doesn’t seem to stick, whereas he can rattle off stuff about computers or physics, even quantum physics, with a deep comprehension, and that was all self-taught. I really do think it’s just a mental block about the math, resulting from our not teaching it properly in a way that encouraged him (yeah, I’m guilt-tripping myself a bit here) and that his true passion really is in the sciences. Part of it too might be just test-taking anxiety, since homeschoolers don’t have as much experience with timed tests as do their conventional counterparts. (Homeschooling has many advantages, but test-taking deficiencies are a definite disadvantage.)</p>

5

<p>In terms of physics at least, I’d argue that it is possible to learn the concepts of physics without math if you have an exceptional and patient teacher. The real question, though, is why one would want to give up almost the strongest tool one has for doing physics (second only to physical intuition). Indeed the pedagogy off all physical science curricula is to develop that physical intuition from solving numerous ‘toy’ problems, which of course, require an immense amount of math.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I would say one’s skill as a physicist, at least, is not necessarily limited by his or her mathematical ability. If someone is able to build a conceptual understanding of how the world works, perhaps he or she can still make a contribution. It’s often overstated, but an interesting example would be Einstein’s development of special relativity. While he was certainly no mathematical slouch, what allowed him to succeed was his identification of which conceptual principles he felt must be true. After a clever choice of his postulates, the rest of the theory’s framework comes together rather straightforwardly. Unfortunately, when one’s intuition fails and when one does not have sufficient mathematical abilities to guide him or her, one does reach a very difficult situation, much like what Einstein encountered in his first attempts for developing general relativity.</p>

<p>In other words, unless your son’s physical insight greatly exceeds those currently working in the field, it’s going to be difficult. Moreover, the college experience of a physics major not comfortable with math would be painful and possibly short. My advice, similar to others, is to try to catch up with math if your son really does enjoy physics (or computer science as you mention). Maybe if the math in itself doesn’t interest him, give him some physics problems that require more advanced math to solve. This is how math is generally taught in advanced physics courses. You risk him missing a solid foundation in math, but the most important part of getting him to learn is the motivation.</p>

6

<p>There are different levels of mathematical sophistication, and he might be fine in college. Especially in many areas of biology which are not quite as math-intensive.</p>

<p>For some fields however, – usually with the words quantum and physics figuring prominently – you can pretty much assume that serious work will require performance way, way out on the upper tail of the math distribution. The truth is, there is almost no such thing as “getting science” without math.</p>

<p>It might also be a good learning experience to struggle a bit with the math. Top science students usually get to a point where the coursework just seems undoable. They then have to get over that hump. Unless you’re the second coming of Von Neumann, you get to that point with near certainty. The only difference is when.</p>

<p>In econ grad school, I noticed that a big difference between students who’d come from rigorous programs vs those from less selective schools was not intellectual ability, but rather the ability to cope with seemingly impossible coursework. The latter group had breezed through both high school and college and didn’t understand the coming of The Wall. The former understood that there was always some stuff you weren’t going to get, or at least not for a good while.</p>

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<p>“is able to build a conceptual understanding of how the world works, perhaps he or she can still make a contribution. … indentification of which conceptual principles he felt must be true. After a clever choice of his postulates, the rest of the theory’s framework comes together rather straightforwardly.”</p>

<p>This probably describes him. He wrote an essay in 8th grade about the controversies surrounding Einstein’s theories (some of which are now being questioned) and his teacher, a college prof now homeschooling her own children, said it was better than many of the papers turned in by her college students. He really did grasp what he was writing about. In 10th grade he audited the high school physics class offered at the homeschool co-op (taught by an engineer also homeschooling her children, and she was a very strict teacher) and at that time the math was over his head, but he found the concepts actually boring, as he already understood them. Then he enrolled in physics at the comm. college, but dropped the class after 3 weeks because he got a job and decided to take only 2 classes this semester instead of 3, so he could work more hours (to save $$ for college next year). When I called the prof to find out what he needed to do to drop the class, he told me that my son was extremely intelligent and clearly understood the physics. Then when my son went to the prof’s office, the prof told him again that he seemed to understand the physics already, without having taken the class.</p>

<p>He’s like that with computer knowledge too. I am a software engineer and he can hold his own easily with the software engineers where I work. He doesn’t have as much actual programming experience obviously, but what he does have he understands quite well. He was webmaster and computer repair person for the homeschool co-op in 9th grade. They trusted him with their computers and their website.</p>

<p>So it’s really odd - he’s got this gift with science/technology so it really does seem that it is the field he would thrive in. I really hope he makes peace with the math so it doesn’t hold him back.</p>

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<p>"It might also be a good learning experience to struggle a bit with the math. Top science students usually get to a point where the coursework just seems undoable. They then have to get over that hump. Unless you’re the second coming of Von Neumann, you get to that point with near certainty. The only difference is when.</p>

<p>In econ grad school, I noticed that a big difference between students who’d come from rigorous programs vs those from less selective schools was not intellectual ability, but rather the ability to cope with seemingly impossible coursework. The latter group had breezed through both high school and college and didn’t understand the coming of The Wall. The former understood that there was always some stuff you weren’t going to get, or at least not for a good while."</p>

<p>Ah, THAT’S IT!!! That is IT! Yes, that is IT! </p>

<p>I just realized, he doesn’t even know that the Wall exists! He has always been at the top of everything, the best at everything he set out to do. It is true that he has not been in a rigorous setting. He has had the luxury of pursuing his interests, and that has worked very well in some ways because he has taught himself at a very high level in SOME areas: politics, technology, etc.</p>

<p>But, you are right: he has not gotten over that hump. He didn’t even know the hump existed. He was feeling a low self-esteem regarding math because he wasn’t used to having to struggle. He was used to everything coming easily to him. This is very helpful! I am going to show him your post. Thanks!</p>

9

<p>The most introductory physics courses require a fundamental working knowledge of calculus. Differential equations are required in engineering. Statistics is a necessity for all scientists. </p>

<p>The nature of a successful scientist is that they can learn what ever is necessary to solve a problem.</p>

<p>It is very possible that your son is not familiar with what a career as a scientist involves. It is best for him to get a good tutor through calculus.
Probability can be fun if taught well. Beyond calculus, IMHO the math gets
easier, because their is less theory and more practical usage.</p>

<p>He needs to learn the math, regardless of what it takes.</p>

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<p>leal, you could be talking about D, except in the opposite way. You already know the answer from the good responses above (and your response to their responses). It’s not a lack of IQ, or even ability. It’s just that there are some holes that need to be filled . He can’t be as good at science as he is and not be capable of mathematics. My D says Chem is just like math (I have no idea what she means). </p>

<p>To state the answer outloud, face it head-on. Afraid of snakes? Major in Herpetology. At least that is D’s theory. </p>

<p>My D was “weakest” in writing (while still scoring very high on all testing). She chose to go to a writing intensive LAC and start her college career with a “writing seminar” she had placed out of with AP credit. She chose the "best but hardest grading " prof. She is working very hard and has yet to make an A on an assignment but… her writing is improving dramatically. (BTW, it improved in the college app writing period, too ;)). Where once it was “just the facts, ma’am”, it is now possible to see style and wit and if you squint a little, maybe even art in her writing. And that’s after just a semester. When she’s done a few more, who knows? But I’ll bet on her. </p>

<p>I’ll wager that your kid will do the same. Of course, it has to be his choice. Kids are good at what kids value.</p>

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<p>I suggest that he should do math. You said he can do it if he works at it, so what’s the problem?</p>

<p>As well, it is an opportunity! That God that there is one thing that is not easy for him such that he can learn a little discipline and perseverance - both much more important to success than is a high IQ.</p>

<p>Grad school is often very mathematical even in areas where one would not expect it - e.g., economics. One is really limited if one decides to join the vast rank and file of math illiterates.</p>

12

<p>Sounds like he just needs a systematic approach. A tutor or math classes at CC. It might take a year to catch up on what he has missed, but it has to be done. </p>

<p>Sounds like he’s smart at math too, but it’s not as intuitive as his physics understanding, so of course he feels it’s difficult for him. Math is just a tool he needs to develop so he can do what he loves.</p>

<p>It’s like being a “genius” at playing piano. You still have to slog through scales and arpeggios in order to develop the technic to be able to play the most difficult music.</p>

<p>I would guess, being homeschooled, he didn’t have a peer group of math geeks. These kids do various timed tests in Math Club, some of which culminate in State and Natl. competitions. It’s fun! Really!</p>

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<p>I was very strong in verbal and science, and I’m doing ok in my academic career in biological research (although these days tenure and $3 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks). I could slog through the math, enough to get two doctoral degrees, but it never came easy and still doesn’t. I can’t even help my kid with her AP calculus. Personally, I think there is some hard-wiring involved; some of my colleagues think in equations. All fields of science require a rigorous understanding and application of statistical analysis, but in some one absolutely does not need to be a math whiz.</p>

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<p>He may also need to take a step back. I took Calculus at 16 and felt that true understanding was just beyond my grasp. The 2 I got on the AP probably reflected my shaky understanding. Three years later I took it again at Harvard and I wondered what my problem had been. I got an A and finished the final exam before the halfway mark. He may just need a little time for his brain to grow into the math he’s learned.</p>

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<p>You need it, period. Calculus, diff.eq., stat. I would also add numerical methods, I think these are becoming increasingly important. Also advanced algebra and special functions (the kind of thing often covered in precalc) - it’s really hard to read some of the literature without having a good grounding in these.</p>

<p>Some posters above suggested biology as being less math-intensive as other sciences but IMHO if you look at where the growth is coming in biology, it’s in computational biology …</p>

<p>Do be aware, too, that there is a difference between “understanding the concepts” and “applying (or working with) the concepts”. Working scientists end up doing more of the latter. One can often understand the concepts without understanding the math behind them, but it’s hard to apply them without a good grasp of the mathematical tools.</p>

<p>All that said, it’s important to point out that you don’t have to love math or be a stellar mathematician to be a good scientist - even in an area which is pretty highly mathematical. [I’m a prime case in point here!] What you do need is the willingness to keep plugging away at the math until you get what you need to solve the problem. I find that it helps me to think of math as a language - I need to “speak” it well enough in order to dig the meaning out of an article. [Once you get away from pretty introductory levels, you can’t depend on others to translate the math into English for you.] I also find it helpful to think of math as a toolset. I need to be competent in using several tools. I also need to know that specialty tools exist (so I can learn to use them myself or find someone else to apply them for me).</p>

<p>Has your son had any calculus? Or is he stuck at the precalc level? In my experience, a lot of HS kids (including mine) have more trouble with precalc than with calculus. Also, it sounds to me like he (maybe with help from you?) needs to do some backfilling in math. NOT NOT NOT to knock your educational methods here, but some kids who teach themselves almost everything else just fine really need the discipline of a structured series of math classes (which they will probably hate) to get themselves to the point where they can learn scientific math on their own. Depending on what is available to you, you might want to look for an engineering math class, IF you can find one which doesn’t require facility in calculus / stat / diffeq.</p>

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<p>Medicine requires a basic knowledge of statistics- and using a calculator to add/subtract/multiply/divide. Some med schools still require calculus (what a waste!), many don’t. So if your son is at all interested in biology, this might be an option. I don’t think even molecular biology requires calculus- stats is more important.</p>

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<p>I agree that some of the most exciting areas in biology are math-intensive, including computation, systems biology, and complex trait genetics. But there is plenty of room for “old-school” experimental biology that does not require calculus. Most of my colleagues could not solve a differential equation if it fell on them. And this does not apply to just us deadwood; the best applicants for our faculty searches include both computational geniuses and experimental wunderkind. </p>

<p>In fact, the most productive science will likely involve collaborations between investigators using these approaches. Thus, what is necessary is an appreciation of the utility of mathematical approaches, and a willingness to contemplate how they can be applied, but not necessarily their mastery.</p>

<p>If your kid is interested in a scientific career (and just being good at it does not dictate this) it is IMO important to get a lab experience. I think that people who identify this inclination early find their way to see it through, even if parts do not come easy. (I am still traumatized by the experience of trying to learn Fourier transformation in my graduate Biophysics course.)</p>

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<p>You’ll probably need to get through multiple semesters of calculus in order to get a BS in most sciences, depending what kind of science you’re thinking of majoring in. But once you into the real world, you may have to do crazy math, but you do the same sort of math over and over again, so you get the hang of it.</p>

<p>My H’s weakest subject in college was math. But he went on to get a Ph.D in a biological science and has had a long career in the field. So don’t give up…somehow muddle through college math.</p>

<p>(Suggestion: don’t even think of majoring in physics! That takes a LOT of math.)</p>

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<p>Interestingly, I always viewed myself as not the best in math, and avoided taking advanced math…settling for the two semesters of calculus required for my chemistry major and struggling through those. THEN, I started in my advanced theoretical chemistry classes my junior year in college and found myself, by happenstance, to be doing differential equations, multivariable calculus, and all kinds of advanced math for my coursework in chemistry. I LOVED it! Math finally made sense in the context of my major. I suspect that you are right in that your son is math averse because of the way he was taught when he was younger. I also suspect that he’ll conquer the math without any problem that’s required for his major, because it will MAKE SENSE and help him master the concepts. I wouldn’t worry about him at all!</p>

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<p>Bright kids can breeze through mathematical concepts, just instinctively “getting” them with little or not effort - up to a point. Pre-calc or the start of calculus is a pretty common threshhold for hitting that wall. This is an important fork in the road – don’t ignore that. Either your son will adapt to the process of working to learn things that he doesn’t just automatically “get” or he won’t. If he does, he can continue down the line in science. If he doesn’t, he may end up like a guy I know who entered college as a physics major ane emerged seven years later as a lawyer. ;)</p>