Senior Awards Rants

Parents Forum
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<p>*“…there are a lot of teachers who do have not particularly impressive educational credentials.”</p>

<p>*“I mean-- most didn’t go to prestige universities or become doctors or lawyers or Ph.D’s – if they did, they wouldn’t be teaching high school.”</p>

<p>*“(There are a few exceptions, fortunately – and they really do enrich the kid’s experiences-”</p>

<p>*“Even if a kid is very considerate and generous, a teacher who worked their way through Podunk U. may perceive the kid going off to an Ivy as being spoiled and over-privileged. The perception may be wrong, but its people who have less tend to perceive people who have more.” </p>

<p>I think, Calmom, that we all got the point you were trying to make. Even those of us that went to a state teacher college can understand simple English.</p>

<p>“EPTR, I’m not going to waste time with too many details. My daughter in particular encountered teachers who tried to encourage her to “look seriously at community college” rather than going straight off to a 4 year university. This is a kid who had her sights set on elites from the beginning and would be showing up at home saying that “Mrs. M. says she really think the teaching is better at community colleges.”
I’m not trying to attack the Mrs. M’s out there. I didn’t say anything whatsoever about their teaching ability. This is the thread about their award-giving sensibilities. A lot of teachers didn’t relate to my kid’s ambitions --they saw them as unrealistic or simply outside of the realm of their own expectations for the kids that they taught. I was responding to the poster who is distraught that a Stanford-bound student doesn’t get awards… my point is that that not everyone shares the same world view.”</p>

<p>Are you saying that the Mrs. M’s out there are so resentful of your daughter’s intellect and potential that they are intentionally steering her toward CC because they don’t want her to succeed? Really? I know it may be inconceivable but it has been my experience that many tier 3 schools and even CCs have excellent teaching programs that equal or even surpass those of the Ivies. Perhaps the teacher is giving what she considers to be solid advice to your daughter. I’m quite sure that she was not the first ambitious student that they encountered with her sights set on “elites”.</p>

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<p>I’m surprised how many here take high school awards seriously. Maybe it was because I wasn’t a tippy-top student (I was good, but not “top”), but I didn’t give the awards a second thought when I was in high school. I don’t remember who won them, or even what they were. It’s just high school.</p>

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<p>“The perception may be wrong, but its people who have less tend to perceive people who have more.”</p>

<p>just want to say, as a very happy and (so I’m told) successful teacher, I don’t feel that i have less than those that studied at “elites”. I feel that I received a superior and rigorous education in my discipline at a state school. ( I might add that I paid 1,000 dollars a year in tuition from 1978-1982). If I had a student come to me and ask for my recommendations as to where to go to study for the teaching profession, my list would be peppered with state and local colleges. Many of them are ones that don’t have the “bumper sticker” appeal and bragging rights of the Ivies but would, nonetheless, prepare a student to be effective in the classroom.</p>

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<p>“A friend of mine had a daughter who was interested in becoming a teacher and was interested in Northwestern’s School of Education. The parents were willing to pay, that wasn’t the issue, and she was otherwise in the reasonable ballpark to apply to a school of that caliber. Two teachers in the school told the daughter not to bother with a Northwestern degree if “all she was going to do” was teach high school. I found that shameful on the teachers’ part to give that kind of advice.”</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, if that happened the way that the girl described it, then I agree with you. Shame on them for minimizing their own profession. I don’t know anything about Northwestern’s education program so I can’t speak to that. My point is that there are many state colleges and universities that have excellent programs that equal or even surpass those of the more prestigious colleges. My advice to a student would never insinuate that they should settle for a sub par education because, after all, they were “only” going to be teachers!</p>

<p>As far as teachers resenting students who are planing to attend a school that is more prestigious than the one they attended…well, if they do exist, that is just plain scary. I suspect, though, that the parents that perceive this to be the case are depending on the classic “He/ she is just jealous of you. That’s why he/she behaves that way”. This is an ill advised stance to take as it encourages a false sense of superiority and arrogance. I have seen this go awry more times than I can count.</p>

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<p>actually, i never shared that sentiment with my son. it wasn’t clear to me what the problem was w/ two of his teachers, but reading calmom’s earlier comment got me thinking. teachers are human beings. some of them are petty. this isn’t a personal attack. i wouldn’t tell my son that an adult was “jealous of you” because i would want to guard against creating a poor teacher/student relationship. but there was definitely something going on with these two particular teachers that was strange. i think they may have internalized some of that “state school is inferior to prestige school” mentality, and it manifested itself in certain comments and behaviors in class which my son shared with me. consequently, both of these teachers are pretty much disliked by students.</p>

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<p>I see it a different way, coming from an area where Big 10 schools rule. The “jaw drop power” of HYPSM et al just isn’t as large here as it is on cc and I doubt the teachers really have a clue what an accomplishment it is to get in those types of schools and how competitive they are. Therefore, they’re just not as impressed as the student or family might think they should be.</p>

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<p>Let’s suppose that I and my D are the miserable wretches you paint us to be. She is passionless, entitled, over-rewarded, and saddled with an obnxious mother who plots with her in advance the awards she will win. The question remains, if my D best met the criteria for the award, shouldn’t the teachers and coaches in question give it to her regardless? Doesn’t the concept of professionalism in the teaching profession involve putting aside one’s personal feelings about a student and his parents, treating eveyone the same and without favoritism? And further, especially if the teacher believes the child has a demanding and difficult parent whose attitude may have warped the child, shouldn’t s/he respond with mature compassion and overlook certain deficiencies in that child as a result of knowledge of the child’s upbringing?</p>

<p>Besides, there ARE honors which allow staff to reward the kids they like and whose attitude they prefer. The “Coach’s Award” is one of these. If giving awards to kids they like best is what teachers want to do, then do it. But make sure the title of the award and its stated criteria match the child.</p>

<p>Leaving now to read Ayn Rand… With so many highly accomplished people on CC, I’m surprised so few of you or your children seem to have experienced the effects of envy and jealousy.</p>

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<p>i just re-read my last comments. i write as though high school is over. he still has a couple of weeks left. but–for me–i’ve already shifted into ‘college freshman’s mom’ mode, lol!</p>

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<p>GFG</p>

<p>If it helps at all I do not think that you or your daughter are any of those things that you listed. I do understand perfectly the points that you are trying to make and I don’t think that you have been plotting with your daughter about winning awards while scheming against others to prevent them from winning.</p>

<p>In a perfect world, yes, the powers that are in place should be able to put aside their personal biases and do the right thing. That is not to say that say that these powers HAVE biases toward your family or your D. I don’t know and I don’t care to speculate. Believe me, I empathize as i have had similar experiences with my child. I will never really know why she is often overlooked and (from my perspective) under appreciated. You may never know, either. It may be one of those things that we just have to accept as being what it is.</p>

<p>I know that if I can muster the energy and the assertiveness, I will offer some insight from this discussion with my High School next year. So you, by starting this thread may be instrumental in changing the system. Maybe since I will have already graduated both of my children I will be heard as an objective and experienced voice who has the interest of all of the students in mind and not as a “sour grapes” complainer. </p>

<p>As an elementary teacher, I try to look for the underdog, the quietly competent students, the ones that need to have that voice of encouragement. All kids need affirmation and appreciation. I hope that when I interact with children I am able to set aside any personal biases that I have. I know that I try hard to do that and I know that I am much better at it now as a parent than I was before I knew the depth of love and hurt that parenthood brings.</p>

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<p>EPTR, I am NOT saying anything remotely like what you are reading into my posts. It seems to me that you’ve simply pulled quotes from me out of context and ignored everything else I said and twisted it around. </p>

<p>I am not the one here whining about whether or not my d. got awards. As a matter of fact, there was at least one, maybe more than one, school-awarded scholarships that my daughter wanted, but went instead to kids who were headed off to the local community college. We did feel at the time that maybe a kid going away to college could have used the money a little more than the kids who would be living at home paying a few hundred dollars a year for fees and books – but that wasn’t my point. My point was that we did not think that my daughter’s elite college aspirations made her more deserving of awards than the CC-bound, and that we did not expect teachers to change their world view to start lavishing accolades on my daughter. </p>

<p>I think the teachers assumed that the handful of kids who were aspiring to elite schools came from relatively privileged backgrounds and had everything going for them. There was no way for the teachers to know of any kid’s personal finances, and I doubt that any of the teachers knew very much about need based financial aid at private colleges. So when my daughter came to teachers with a sheaf of common app reference forms and was asking them to write a LOR to be sent off to 8 different private colleges – they probably simply assumed that she came from a privileged background. And so when it came down to voting for which kid would get the scholarship, they probably voted for someone they perceived as having greater need. </p>

<p>Again, if you would read my posts, you would see that I am NOT the one complaining about this. In my view, this would be the normal and expected. The teachers aren’t “mean spirited” – they live in a world where community college is the typical and normal route that they took to their 4 year degrees, at public colleges, and that they expect many of their students to take. </p>

<p>California used to have an excellent public education system, but it is a tiered system – and MOST of the teaching certificates are awarded via the CSU’s. So kids go off to the CSUs to become teachers or nurses or physical therapists, etc. – because that is the system in our state. They can also study other subjects, but CSU’s tend to have more practically-focused majors with the UC’s focusing more on theory and academics. The UC system is viewed as a cut above the CSU’s, but for many kids the path to the UC system is very often via the community college system – kids do 2 years at cc and then if their grades are high enough they have guaranteed transfer into the UC system. Even if they can be accepted into the UC’s from the start, they can’t afford the cost for 4 years. Most will not have their parents writing tuition checks for them, so college accounting is based on the assumption that the kid pays the out-of-pocket costs. </p>

<p>If you start out at a CSU, then it is very difficult to transfer to the UC’s. So for many students, the CC’s (lowest tier) are in fact that path to the UC’s (highest tier), so when a teacher urges her students to go to a CC that may in fact be a way to encourage them them to strive for the higher academic level.</p>

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<p>thegcf:</p>

<p>I’m not sure what awards you are talking about here. I’ve kind of lost track of the thread after reading Calmom’s comment regarding the jealousy/resentment of poorly educated teachers…</p>

<p>However, if you are talking about awards with purely objective criteria, then I agree with you. If a kid has earned it, he has earned it regardless of his attitude or his mom’s attitude. Valedictorian comes to mind as this type of award.</p>

<p>But, there are many, many awards which have a subjective component, and for which objective criteria such as grades are merely a floor. (Think of acceptances to the ivies, where grades and tests are the floor, but leadership, recommendations and other subjective criteria make the difference.) In these types of awards, a student’s attitude in the classroom is certainly a factor.</p>

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<p>^^^
The GFG is generally talking about those awards with objective criteria and the unfair system of choosing recipients.</p>

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<p>Calmom,
I’m sorry but my post contains only direct quotes from YOUR post. I haven’t twisted anything. I’m just responding to what you wrote. I realize that my responses are passionate but…well, it matters to me.</p>

<p>It’s okay. You have expressed your opinion and I have expressed mine.</p>

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<p>What an improper statement. Sources, please. …Because the teachers I know mostly obtained 4-year degrees from direct 4-year residencies at U.C.'s or at private 4-years in and out of state. I haven’t met a single teacher recently who went the cc route and then transferred to a U.C. They’re all theoreticians like myself.</p>

<p>They ‘live in a world’ …etc.? Wow.</p>

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<p>I’m sure this was addressed already, haven’t read this entire thread but just because a kid is valedictorian, doesnt mean he or she had the highest average in a subject. They could have gotten 100 in every class, but perhaps there was atleast 1 kid per class who got 101.</p>

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<p>I don’t think you really get how much money and finances plays into everyone’s perceptions. </p>

<p>The reason that adults would discourage a student from attending an elite college if they “only” want to be a teacher is because teacher’s salaries are not adequate to pay off the loans that middle-income people would need to attend expensive private schools. </p>

<p>It was a huge financial sacrifice for me to get my d. through Barnard, even with financial aid. I spent all my savings, I’ve got a bunch of PLUS loans, and my daughter has a full load of Stafford loans. If my daughter had career aspirations that could have as easily been met by attending the local CSU – then I’m not sure if it would be worth it for us to carry so much debt. I certainly do think it is fair and reasonable to look at that before buying into the whole elite college mystique. </p>

<p>For some people it doesn’t matter. Either their credentials are so high and their income so low that their need-based financial aid covers everything – or they are so wealthy that its no problem for the family to pay full cost wherever the kid wants to go. But for me and many others it is a very difficult decision, that needs to be made with a cost/benefit analysis in mind.</p>

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<p>My son has always gone to private school and we have always happily made “leadership” doantions, not mega money but we’ve been invited to the thank you parties. I have seen absolutely no evidence of senior awards following donation amounts. The top award recipients at S’s school will not be having any “alcoves” named after them or their parents. I am not saying the children of larger donors never recieve awards, I just never felt they were undeserving. BTW my son did recieve a crew award, it’s a small team at his BS and I am pretty sure he earned it, I really don’t think H and I “bought” it.</p>

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<p>Calmom,</p>

<p>Of course, I do get the financial component. My response to your original post concerning resentful teachers makes the point that many students choose state teacher colleges because they are anticipating a low teacher’s salary.</p>

<p>The quote above was from my response to a post in which the poster had already said that finances were not an issue for the student and the student was aiming for Northwestern.</p>

<p>If I were advising a student as to which college to apply to in pursuit of a teaching degree i would, of course, take into consideration all of the factors that are relevant to that student and his/her family.</p>

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<p>This is really sliding off topic, but I can’t resist. The very most evil teacher either of my kids have ever had was a Yale Divinity grad. The only good news is that 15 years after graduating she is still paying back her loans. I know, mean, mean, mean. It’s late.</p>

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<p>MD Mom,
How ironic! lol.</p>