<p>Maybe the principal’s office has been on CC and knows who you are, GFG. I am kidding.</p>
<p>Hunt, just because they got higher scores on a test, doesn’t mean they achieved more. They may not have made the most out of their language education. For example, they may have a background in the language or have had the resources to travel to the country in which the language is spoken. In class, they may have gone “through the motions” and not have participated much, helped the other students, or tried to go beyond their existing knowledge. I’m not sure why an explanation needs to be given to them just because the did well on a test. </p>
<p>For example, my D got a perfect score on the verbal and written parts of her SAT. She got a 5 on the AP English. No one else in the school got her scores. The English department decided to award the student who contributed most in the classroom through discussions and writings. I don’t feel my D is owed any sort of an explanation because she did well on a test.</p>
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The explanation is needed because those things you listed might be true, but they might not be. If the real reason is that they already received “enough” recognition for their achievements, then I really think an explanation is needed.</p>
<p>One note here, and something that I think is behind some of the disagreement here: there is a difference between the value of getting an award, and the hurt from not getting one that you think you earned. Getting the award may not be a big deal, especially if you have a lot of awards in that area. Not getting it, though, might make you think that your coach or teacher doesn’t like you and is snubbing you for some unknown reason. That’s what I take from what GFG is talking about, for example. It’s not that anybody needs another award showning that they’re good at French–but they might be hurt if their French teacher seems to be overlooking them.</p>
<p>The kids who did not get the language awards were, in fact, very hurt by the slight. Both of them were good kids and hard workers. Both had traveled to the country to further study the language and the boy had stayed and worked in the country for several weeks after the trip. They did not feel that they were “owed” the award, and they were not angry at the students who were recognized. The root of the problem is that it was implied that the awards were for the students who had the best command of the language and they were not the students who were recognized.</p>
<p>MD Mom–we crossposted, and that’s what I’m getting at. If there were no language award at all, they probably wouldn’t be upset in the least.</p>
<p>You are exactly right, Hunt.</p>
<p>Of course, what we all need to remember is something one of my friends said years ago about some middle school ceremony: “I don’t need [fill in your school name or fill in the stinker who chose to overlook, snub, you pick the word my kid] to tell me that my kid is smart.”</p>
<p>It makes me feel better.</p>
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<p>Just using the GFG’s point above as a jumping off point …
My nephew, who just graduated and is 8 mos older than my twins who are rising seniors, will be attending Princeton in the fall. He is a “superstar,” also got into MIT, strong scholar-athlete, all the possible credentials one can imagine.</p>
<p>Someone asked my son, “So, are you jealous of your cousin for getting into Princeton?” And my son answered, “No, I’m really happy for him. I’m not jealous at all.” I can’t tell you how proud I was of his answer, because I know my S well enough to know that it was completely sincere.</p>
<p>“If the real reason is that they already received “enough” recognition for their achievements, then I really think an explanation is needed.”</p>
<p>That’s probably not the reason and is why an explanation is not needed. The teachers probably felt that others contributed most to the coursework even though the higher scoring students may be better speakers of the language. Plus, not everyone has the resources to travel to the country where the language is spoken as the two higher scorers did.</p>
<p>“So, are you jealous of your cousin for getting into Princeton?” </p>
<p>Good for your son! Though it’s a pretty insensitive question implying that his own accomplishments aren’t enough.</p>
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Why do you think that is “probably” the reason? Just your faith in the goodness of human nature? I mean, I would hope that is the reason. But the winning kids might also be well-known brown-nosers.</p>
<p>Let me just add that probably 99% of the time, nobody is surprised or upset by high school awards–they usually go to the kids that everybody expected to get them. We’re only talking about the results that seem–at least to somebody–to be anomalous. Perhaps our reactions to those apparently anomalous results reveals something about our attitude toward the competence and goodwill of authorities. I think that some percentage of those anomalies are explained by things we don’t know that are perfectly reasonable, and some percentage are caused by things that are unreasonable or unfair.</p>
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<p>If your kid and mine both apply to (insert elite school here), and both of them are reasonably and equally well-qualified according to objective standards of GPA, SAT, etc., and your kid gets in and mine doesn’t, am I to assume my kid did something WRONG? Or just wasn’t chosen because there are X number of qualified applicants and only Y number of beds that they can fill?</p>
<p>For the life of me, I don’t see how this is any different from elite college admissions. Surely the elite colleges could easily fill their classes several times over from their applicant pool – but they can’t, and so they have to make choices, often on intangibles. They’re not “dissing” or insulting or slapping the face of the kids they reject; they can only give out so many acceptances.</p>
<p>It’s the exact same thing for these awards. Surely the powers that be could easily give several awards, but they only have so many to give, and so they have to make choices, often on intangibles. They’re not “dissing” or insulting or slapping the face of the kids who don’t get the awards.</p>
<p>If anything, high school IS one supreme popularity contest that has no real-world relevance – so even less of a reason to stake your self-esteem on it. (Does someone get elected student-body president because of real leadership capabilities, or because they’re popular?)</p>
<p>GTAlum–The “winners” went on the trip as well. This was at a fairly nice prep school with tuition topping $22K a year, so travel money was not a problem. I was just trying to post an example of something that didn’t really make sense as far as awards go.</p>
<p>I feel that many of you are over-estimating the recognition value to the student of having already “won the big prize”–whether that be an academic honor like NMF, a prestigious national award, a state championship title, or a national language prize. I think that public recognition in front of peers is justifiable and important as well. One reason is that some of these accomplishments are achieved out of the spotlight and are recognized out of the spotlight–the kid might only get a letter in the mail, for example. Even for sports, often the state championship events are not held in the home town, not all sports are popular among spectators, and most students won’t even be aware of what their classmates have accomplished–especially now that the press is suffering so much and coverage is negligible. Acknowlegement in front of one’s local school and community is much more meaningful than receiving an envelope from the mailman.</p>
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<p>Do you tell your kid to conclude that the adcom at (elite school of his choice) didn’t like him or snubbed him by not admitting him? Or do you try to convey the “that’s the way the cookie crumbles” attitude? Why would you encourage your kid to take it any more personally than a college rejection? “Oh, well, tant pis pour eux. Their loss. Your inherent worth isn’t based on their opinions.”</p>
<p>Then again, I’m really hoping my kids are so floating on positive college admissions results (everyone cross fingers!!) that none of this hs stuff will mean anything at any level.</p>
<p>I think there is a big difference between a decision made by an unknown and faceless adcom at a college, and one made by a coach or teacher who knows you well. If the adcom rejects you, you’re not likely to wonder whether he didn’t like you or is snubbing you for some personal reason.</p>
<p>“Why do you think that is “probably” the reason? Just your faith in the goodness of human nature?”</p>
<p>Yes, I believe that HS teachers and administrators do the best they can and try the best to be fair. What evidence to you have to the contrary?</p>
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<p>I think this where we have a fundamental value difference. I don’t consider the desire for recognition by one’s peers – esp at the hs level – to be an important life value that I want my children to value or aspire to. Great if it occurs – woo hoo! – but not relevant to much of anything if it doesn’t.</p>
<p>My kids both have very significant EC’s that are completely outside of the high school setting. I think their teachers in their relevant subjects should know, insofar as it may help them in knowing them more fully, writing recommendations, etc. But their peers? Why would I teach them to value peer recognition instead of just the quiet value of the work that they are doing, and the plaudits they get in the course of their EC’s? So what if no other student at the hs ever knows that my S does XYZ and my D does ABC? As long as they’re enjoying what they’re doing and learning, and it provides something interesting for them to hang their hats on when it comes to college apps – that’s all that matters, IMO.]</p>
<p>That’s like saying that the benefit of doing a sport is winning an award in it, as opposed to just enjoying the physicality and health benefits of doing the sport. My D is a varsity athlete in a given sport. Couldn’t care less how well she does or how well the team does – the value is that she enjoys it, has a good time with her teammates, and gets the benefit of the fresh air / exercise. Period. I was never one of those annoying stereotypical soccer-parent-on-the-sidelines when they were in elementary school and I certainly don’t want to be that type in hs.</p>
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[quote[ I think there is a big difference between a decision made by an unknown and faceless adcom at a college, and one made by a coach or teacher who knows you well. If the adcom rejects you, you’re not likely to wonder whether he didn’t like you or is snubbing you for some personal reason.
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<p>Yes, but I wouldn’t encourage my kid to actually wallow in a belief that he was being unfairly passed over, snubbed, slapped-in-the-face, etc.</p>
<p>So after this entire thread, it’s still impossible for some of you to believe that it just might be the case that the student not chosen for an award could have been superior in every way to the child who won the award? That the overlooked student might not have a single glaring flaw, but was simply not chosen because the teacher had a personal bias that had nothing to do with the relevant qualifications? You honestly don’t know of a single teacher who dislikes boys, who resents handsome football players or pretty cheerleaders, who hates Republicans or Democrats or evangelical Christians or Muslims, or who can’t stand when a student is smarter than he is?</p>
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Pizzagirl, I guess I feel that you still don’t really believe that any of these decisions are actually unfair or hurtful (as evidenced by your use of “belief” above). I just don’t consider it trivial when kids are treated poorly. I agree that they should get over it, and they usually do, but I don’t agree with being an apologist for the people who are making the bad decisions.</p>
<p>Cross-posed with GFG–that’s my point, too. It’s an amazingly Pollyanna-ish attitude for the usually hard-bitten denizens of this forum.</p>