<p>“Maybe in some cases the illegal acts are committed by “criminals”, but I think in many cases they are regular guys who fall victim to lapse of judgement, and are supported by an environment of enablement, acceptance and even encouragement. They become “criminals” as a result of their crime, but were not originally.”</p>
<p>That’s pretty much true of every criminal I’ve ever met, except for the majority of murderers, who commit crimes of passion, never did so before, and never will do so again.</p>
<p>Poetgrl, you may know of studies that support your view, I am just going from gut feel, and from reading Mini’s link. The myths discussed there were about women (victims), not men. Regarding men it suggested environmental factors influenced behavior, which implies that the men weren’t always criminals beforehand. And given their young ages, that means high school. </p>
<p>“Therefore, in such cultures,individuals who fail to conform to certain standards of masculinity are viewed as deviant. Given that acceptance is a primary motivation for joining social groups such as fraternities, members may feel compelled to assume beliefs and engage in behaviors that aid in the development of social bonds, even if this leads to justifying actions considered deviant in any other context.”</p>
<p>" If so, can you point to anything directly related to rapes of women at college and the perpetrator’s alcohol use and/or level of alcohol consumption?"</p>
<p>I will try to run it down. The question is not whether they used alcohol, but whether they were “intoxicated”. Alcohol is a tool in the criminal toolkit, both knocking down the barriers to criminal behavior, and making the victim more vulnerable.</p>
<p>I don’t know why I am feeling tetchy about this discussion, but I am. I don’t have the time to comb through the various materials to figure out the problem, but I cannot simultaneously believe that (a) 25% or more of women in college experience a rape or attempted rape, with completed rapes representing a majority of those, and (b) only a small percentage of men are responsible for perpetrating those rapes (and therefore there is no “regular guy mistake” issue). I fully believe that there are guys out there who engage in coerced and unconsented sex on a serial basis, but I don’t believe they get around to assaulting a quarter of the female population (and a much higher percentage of the straight, available female population).</p>
<h1>420 We not only talked to our sons about risky and safe spaces and behaviors in urban environments, we supplemented their rent when necessary so they lived in areas we considered safe enough. When we helped move them in, we spent time in the neighborhoods and pointed out to them potential trouble spots. We pointed out where the local sidewalk drug shop was and cautioned them to avoid the area. We told them to stay off their cell phones when walking. We told them to attach themselves to another student group if they found themselves out by themselves at night. We tried our best to explain to them how to reduce their chances of being mugged. So far- so good, though so much of this is just luck. If they are mugged, I’m not blaming them!</h1>
<p>mini, re post #423, this is the comment you made yesterday that I am trying to find support for in the context of rapes of female college students</p>
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<p>This is about the intoxicated state of the rapist. I was reading reports that the perpetrators of rapes/sexual assaults of female college students who DID know the victim had consumed alcohol almost 70% of the times.</p>
<p>I have to agree with you, JHS. It seems far out of proportion, which is not to say that rape and / or date rape are not serious things. But 1/4 of all women? I don’t buy it.</p>
<p>Actually, I could believe that a quarter of women in college experience at least an attempt at coerced sex, and that a lot of them have sex without consent. But I think more than a handful of men are involved.</p>
<p>There are a bunch of competing narratives going on here, and everyone cherrypicks statistics to support their favorite.</p>
<p>Not buying the 1 in 4 either. With the exception of a very small percentage statistically, rape is a crime of opportunity. I highly doubt there is vortex that turns regular guys into criminals in the absence of alcohol and opportunity. There is “regular” guy issues which generally the legal system can determine. I’d only be concerned if something like this emerged months and months later, by-passed the legal system and didn’t pass the sniff test.</p>
<p>“How do we feel about the possibility the herd mentality of some fraternities enables and perhaps encourages the “regular guys” to be rapists?”</p>
<p>Well, yeah, but I think much more often it is the other way around. Criminals look for environments where their behavior will be normative, and where there will be plenty of opportunities, and where the tools of their trade are easily accessed. Will they lead others into crime? Oh, probably. If you spend your time around gang members…</p>
<p>When I read through Mini’s link (p7) I see theories that support both sides of the discussion… 1) that the perpetrators were predisposed, and sought out organizations they thought would be accepting, and 2) that the organizations were the catalyst for the behavior.</p>
<p>Girls need to opt out of the herd mentality that undermines their self respect and causes them to willingly flock in giggling gaggles to the meat market fraternities where they are pawed by drunken boors.</p>
<p>I’m not sure organizations are the catalyst for behavior, but alcohol would be a catalyst for behavior. As far as perpetrators being predisposed I think procreation/sex is in our gene pool so…and if the girls hook-up thread is any indication girls have the drive as well as the boys.</p>
<p>Ah yes there is that, crossposted with GFG.</p>
<p>Here are the “facts.” Facts in rape turn out to be much different than non-rapists can actually imagine, for the very reason they ARE non rapists. The facts show that rape is a repeat offender crime, and this is the case on college campuses. This paper sums up the research, though there is an ongoing study right now, as well.</p>
<p>Anybody’s opinion about rapists on college campuses is just that, your opinion. It is not, however, backed by the facts. Like most criminal sexual offenders, rapists are repeat offenders and recidivists.</p>
<p>But colleges have a strong interest in promoting the “date-rape” mythology - otherwise, they have to admit they have admitted a significant criminal element to their hallowed halls, and might feel some obligation to do something about it.</p>
<p>Both of these studies were interesting, but I was far more impressed with the methodology of the NCWSV. Really great work.</p>
<p>The other study included a lot of supposition, albeit supposition that appeared to make sense. I am concerned that it may have failed to really identify the factors at play, though. The fact that it appeals to our assumptions does not make it accurate. </p>
<p>One thing that really struck me, for example, was that the response rate for fraternity members was virtually TWICE that of sorority members: 60+% vs 30% percent. Sounds like something important was going on there, and it was not identified.</p>
<p>Another thing that struck me was this:</p>
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<p>This would appear to indicate that it is not merely attendance at Greek parties with alcohol that makes sorority members more likely to be sexually assaulted. What is it, then? Their own acceptance of rape myths, desire to conform, admiration of hyper-masculinity? Or am I misreading this?</p>
<p>On the subject of hyper-masculinity and fraternities I have two observations, based on personal experiences (with the obvious limitations of personal observation).</p>
<p>I spent a lot of time at one fraternity at MIT in the 70s. I would observe that there were only one or two people who met that description, and they were men of a type I did not–and do not–like. I <em>never</em> felt threatened or at risk there in any way, including when actually living there during the summer, and neither did any of the other women I knew who were friends with the house.</p>
<p>At my son’s college, I observed that the fraternities that conformed more to the hyper-masculine stereotype were in general considered to have higher social status. (It is an unusual situation there for several reasons, including a housing scheme and schedule that can make a non-dorm long-term home base more attractive, and a degree of openness in the Greek system that is probably unmatched. As a result many students–like my S–who would never pledge elsewhere do so.) Some of those houses, notably those associated with certain varsity teams, have a very poor reputation vis-a-vis women. Yet as far as I can tell as an outside observer, women–or at least some women–continue to flock to them. It would be interesting to me to know whether those are women who have a greater acceptance of rape myths, a greater need to conform to male standards of female desirability both in terms of appearance and behavior, and so forth.</p>
<p>Obviously, my thoughts on this are shaped by my feminist views. :)</p>
<p>It seems to me that several things are needed to change this situation. One is report, report, report…to the police. Another is to educate both males and females about rape myths. Last, but certainly not least, is to empower young women to the point that they would take one look at the strapping, hyper-masculine <em>overtly sexist</em> varsity hero who belongs to the rich guy frat and WALK AWAY because despite his charms, a hyper-masculine sexist guy is not the type of man they want to spend time with.</p>