<p>I was entirely clueless in college back in the Dark Ages. We didn’t live in frats, but we had “frat-like” situations. For everyone. I remember one guy (who is relatively famous now, so I definitely won’t mention his name or provide any other clues) who made a point of “having sex” with the would-be “girl friends” of everyone else in the house (when he could). I am convinced now, looking back at it, that many times it was rape. </p>
<p>It was only one guy - there might have been others, but it certainly wasn’t a common thing involving so-called “date-rape”. Just one, whom I am alleging, without hard facts to back it up and no firsthand knowledge, was likely a criminal.</p>
Even with a proper investigation, this is probably the case for most non-stranger rape cases. As I’ve mentioned on prior discussions of this topic, it is a really difficult proof problem. While I agree that reporting to the actual police (and not the campus police) may be the best thing to do, a conviction will be very difficult in many non-stranger cases. The facts are often just too similar to situations in which no crime has been committed–something that distinguishes rape from many other crimes. I can’t think of any good way to overcome these proof problems, which is why I’m skeptical that tougher enforcement is the primary way to address this problem.</p>
<p>I would also note that while the article poetgrl posts is interesting, it has a clear point of view, and, as is common in discussions of this topic, does not adequately define the terms it uses.</p>
<p>Actually, the researcher who wrote that layman’s paper is responsible for a great deal of highly respected research on the issue. If you want to see the research itself, feel free. It’s dry.</p>
<p>I’m sure you’re right. I just have some problem with an article about rape that doesn’t define what it means by rape–and it doesn’t make it clear that the same definition was used in all the different studies. I’ll have to look at the study–I’d be interested in seeing what exactly all those rapists admitted to having done.</p>
<p>It is true however–and particularly so in light of the study quoted above–that if most rapes are reported, inevitably the worst offenders with accumulate multiple complaints. THAT will have an effect.</p>
That’s a good point. Lysak thinks most of the rapes are committed by serial rapists. If he’s right about that, reporting is essential.</p>
<p>I don’t know if it’s better or worse to think that most unwanted sex in college is the result of premeditated evil behavior by a (relatively) small group of serial predators, or that more of it is the result of opportunistic (and alcohol-fueled) behavior by “ordinary” guys. If my daughter can significantly protect herself by staying away from the “rapey” frats, that’s a good thing, I guess.</p>
<p>While acknowledging the reservations Hunt expresses, I have to say that the Lisak piece poetgirl linked makes me want to confess error in my last few posts, as well as rethinking thoroughly a lot of my other ideas. </p>
<p>The numbers from the study Lisak talks about precisely fit the pattern I questioned: A little more than 6% of men committed enough rapes (however defined) to affect something like a quarter of a similarly-sized population of women, and 90% of those rapes were committed by 4% of men, averaging over six offenses each, while only 2+% of men were one-time offenders (so far), some of whom might well have done something people might characterize as a mistake or error in judgment. I don’t need to get overly precise with the definition of a rape here, or the time frame covered, or the effect of age differences. Even with a wide band of fuzz around those numbers, the ratios are impressive. </p>
<p>Three thoughts:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If this is anywhere in the ballpark of accurate, then mutual incapacity / poor communication / ambivalence / etc. all become relatively trivial in any public health consideration of collegiate rape. Sure, that can happen, and does, but most rape is predation, pure and simple. It’s Don Giovanni: In Italia, seicento e quaranta . . .</p></li>
<li><p>It’s still a nightmare from a prosecution/adjudication standpoint, because some significant portion of the men involved in rapes aren’t serial rapists. Maybe a third, maybe a quarter or a fifth, it almost doesn’t matter. It’s enough to make you really have to think whether the defendant in front of you is a predator or a schlemazel. Especially given the low rate of reporting of rapes, so that it won’t be uncommon for a serial rapist to have a clean record and – because he is a planner – a credible story of honest mistake. The system – whether it’s a student honor board, an administrative hearing, or a prosecution – is still going to have a hard time convicting people convincingly, and at the same time will be prone to treat less serious offenders as monsters.</p></li>
<li><p>This is very hard to square with the canonical feminist analysis of rape as systematic oppression of women in which most men share culpability. It’s very hard to square with the figures on spousal rapes, because surely 4% of husbands are not married to and forcing sex on a third of the wives.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>^Yes. If someone says no, and you keep trying to persuade them along, it’s, uh, ‘seduction’. If someone says no, and you force yourself on them, it’s rape.</p>
<p>Seems that Lisek has identified 5 traits and/or techniques of undetected serial rapists on page 3. Look them over. They seem to provide a plan of action against a victim spread out over a significant period of time.</p>
<p>Lisak seems to provide some support for the idea that “relationships” provide the needed time for the serial rapists who commit 90% of the non-stranger rapes.</p>
<p>JHS–I don’t see how this squares with spousal rapes either.</p>
<p>I think there are several different things going on here.</p>
<p>I don’t think we as a society agree as to what constitutes rape or sexual assault. Throw in the fact that many college campuses have lots of international students and students from different backgrounds, and I think there’s widespread disagreement as to what sort of sexual conduct is unacceptable and/or criminal.</p>
<p>While I think it’s probable that a small group of men commit a disproportionate percentage of rapes, I think it’s also probable that at least some of these men honestly don’t think what they did is wrong. They think if a young woman shows up all dressed up at a frat party and gets drunk, she has consented to have sex with anybody she “willingly” leaves with. They assume she got drunk precisely because she wanted to overcome her inhibitions or to advertise her availability. That’s a rape myth and it’s one that needs to be changed.</p>
<p>Sometimes, I think–and I’m being facetious, but not entirely–there should be breathalizers at colleges. Before you can have sex with anyone, you’d both be required to blow into a breathalizer. Anyone who knowingly had sex with someone with a high BAC would be conclusively established as a rapist. There would be no arguing that “she (or he) didn’t seem all that drunk to me.” The BAC recorded would be kept for some period of time–like a videotape–and would constitute presumptive proof that the “victim” was or was not too drunk to consent. </p>
<p>Additionally, I think a surprising number of men think it’s only wrong if they ejaculate into a woman’s vagina. Using her nude body to climax or poking other parts of their body into her isn’t seen as rape. We saw this in the Steubenville case. </p>
<p>As to why sorority women are more vulnerable to rape, I think it may be in part because there’s less bystander intervention. If a nice guy sees a stranger or even some guy he recognizes from class or the dorm who seems to be acting inappropriately towards a young woman, especially a somewhat drunk young woman, he’s more likely to step in and say something than if he sees his friend doing exactly the same thing. He doesn’t care if the person he doesn’t know well gets mad about it. He doesn’t want to get into a confrontation with someone he has to deal with on a day to day basis–like a frat brother.</p>
<p>Sure there’s a bright line. It’s consent. Successful seduction leads to consensual sex.</p>
<p>The only thing that roughs up the edges of the line a bit is that consent can be coerced, or the capacity to consent lost. But blackmailing someone into having sex, systematically depriving someone of the ability to consent or not and to act on her own inhibitions – that’s not persuasive seduction, that’s rape (albeit rarely prosecuted as such).</p>
<p>Yes, I agree successful seduction leads to consensual sex. I guess the question is, are there some “seducers” who are excellent at convincing women in the moment that they are consenting, but act in a cavalier way afterwards such that afterwards, the women feel that they were indeed coerced. I guess what I’m trying to get at here is - there is a difference between day-after-regret and day-after-belief-that-I-was-raped. There is also a difference between I-didn’t-want-to-say-no-to-hurt-his-feelings-so-I-didn’t-but-on-second-thought-I-should-have and I-said-no-but-he-didn’t-listen.</p>
<p>In fact, the way this research was finally obtained was to explicitly NOT label any of the behaviors as rape, to simply state them as acts. In this case, the perpetrators, were very open about their actions, which, as you note, they did NOT believe was wrong.</p>
<p>What is most striking about the research, however, is the way it then squares up with those who have been incarcerated. These perpetrators on college campuses mirror those in prison almost perfectly, by the numbers. </p>
<p>The implications for this are staggering.</p>
<p>Also, this research is what has led to the emphasis on bystander intervention education in college education sex safety programs. Rapists are not persuadable, they are criminal. Bystander intervention is now considered the standard for rape prevention training.</p>
<p>the good news is that, as you can see in the study Mini linked, completed rapes have fallen by half since 1995, though attempts remain the same. This indicates, though I don’t have the studies or numbers to back this up, that bystander education and rape prevention education is at least helping young women to thwart attempted rapes.</p>
<p>Heck, we heard on this thread earlier on that “men can’t stop once they start.” Or words to that effect. Don’t do X which leads to Y unless you’re willing to live with Y.</p>
<p>Horrifying. Nature or nurture? What do you think? Can we parent in such a way that we have fewer perpetrators? I’m thinking and wondering about the whole “teach men not to rape” recent media discussion.</p>